Who Cares If Your Ideal Client Likes Coffee… and Other B.S. with Michelle Hunter – KDS: 031


This interview with Michelle Hunter was way overdue.

And SO very good!

Michelle and I connected last fall and had an amazing interview… that never quite got published (life was a little crazy last year, there was an issue with the audio and well, here we are, in March of 2019).

I asked Michelle if we could do a live stream instead of simply an audio interview because I knew once people heard her genius there would be great engagement and questions. I wasn’t mistaken. I went ahead and had this episode transcribed for you (yes, it’s that good!), and you can download the transcript at the end of the post or you can read the transcript below.

Michelle is a marketing strategist and copywriter. She works with creative entrepreneurs and established professionals to help refine their business models, their offers, and then develop core messaging around that. Michelle was gracious enough to do some ‘live’ training of what that looks like for a couple of businesses on the live stream, mine included (for the Content Creators Planner).

Backing into the core messaging by starting with the problem isn’t as hard as it sounds, at least with Michelle walking you through it.

She also gave us a couple of specific strategies and exercises to get behind the problem and find out what the emotions are that drive a person to make a buying decision (once you see how this all unfolds it makes it SO much easier to understand!).

Let’s dive into it.

Confidence is quiet. - Michelle HunterClick to Tweet

Questions I Asked Michelle

  1. Where does someone even start with getting clear on their messaging?Michelle Hunter
  2. Can you tell the apple story as an example of a marketing conversation (you have to listen to get this)
  3. How do you get clarity on the problem you’re solving for your client?
  4. When do manifestos work for a business?
  5. What really matters when deciding who your ideal client is?
  6. Can you give us a tangible resource or exercise to help with the messaging?
  7. How can we tell better stories with our content and marketing?
The problem is that you're looking for your ideal client before you've positioned your offer. - Michelle HunterClick to Tweet

What You’re Going to Learn

  • Why you need to start with the transformation (once you’ve uncovered the problem)
  • How to use “so that…” in your message and marketing
  • Why a website banner/tagline shouldn’t use a ‘definition’
  • What it means to find the commonalities to connect
  • How to make sure your offers are in alignment with your ideal client (so you’re not fragmenting your message)
  • How to back into pricing your offers and services
  • How to craft your hook

Where to Connect With Michelle

Website | Creating Profitability Guide

Other Episodes You Might Enjoy

Content Repurposing & My Wake-up Call KDS: 014

Running A Business When Life Goes Sideways KDS: 010

You can read the transcripts below or click here to download a PDF

Read Full Transcript

Kim: 00:00:01 Hey, what's up guys? Before we get into today's episode, just a quick little message for you that we had some technical difficulties. Yeah, for some reason zoom was not picking up the audio. This was a live stream on Facebook with Michelle Hunter of MichelleHunterCreative.com so we switched over to stream yard, which a delivered beautifully and Kim's probably going to get a subscription to that. Don't know why I just talked to in the third person. Anyways, I know I keep saying this you guys, but you're probably gonna want to come back to this. I'm going to get the transcripts done for this episode. Michelle delivered so much. This is all that behind the scenes stuff. The livestream was about refining your offers and we really dove deeper into the initial message and problem you're solving. But what was so fun is that Michelle gave tons of examples.
Kim: 00:00:50 She gave actual tangible strategies for how you can approach this and look at it. And then we shared the live stream into the Content Creators Facebook group, which you should join and she's answering questions about, you know, your headline if you want to pose a headline or a tagline. And so she's super engaged in there too. So anyways, enjoy this episode. I think you're going to love it. We are going to do a part two where we're going to get more into offers and pricing. So yeah, enjoy the episode and let me know what you think.
Kim: 00:01:18 [INTRO] Building an online business is more than branding content and sales. It's what happens behind the scenes during the highs and lows that make or break your business. I'm your host Kim Doyal and this is the Kim Doyal show. I'll be sharing my own journey of 10 plus years growing an online business as well as talking to entrepreneurs who are on the ground, creating, building and showing up every day. Remember, do business as only you can do.
Kim: 00:01:47 I can hear you.
Michelle: 00:01:48 I hear you.
Kim: 00:01:51 Okay, so hold on. Because we've got a bunch of people here so they'll, they're a good crowd so they'll stick around.
Michelle: 00:01:58 Gonna have a good... it's just technology? We're going to have a good time.
Kim: 00:02:01 It is. And fortunately everybody's done this enough that they know now. Like stuff happens. Okay,
Michelle: 00:02:06 that's fine.
Kim: 00:02:07 All right, so one sec. Here we go. Let me just make sure we're live on the page.
Michelle: 00:02:12 Okay.
Kim: 00:02:19 Okay, we're back. Yay.
Kim: 00:02:23 Whoo. Yay. You guys all came in. Thank you. Thank you. Let me just do one little thing here.
Kim: 00:02:32 Hold on.
Kim: 00:02:39 I was, I was trying a different add on camera and I'm like, I was way too close with StreamYard. I didn't want that, that much of a closeup. So, um, okay. Yeah, you guys are awesome. Robert, Davinder. Thank you Jean. Everybody who's come back. I totally appreciate it. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you technology. Thank you zoom. That was tons of fun. Michelle, thank you for your patient.
Michelle: 00:03:03 You're welcome. My pleasure.
Kim: 00:03:06 Yeah, that was crazy.
Michelle: 00:03:07 I'm glad I'm not the only one that has problems with technology, so that makes me happy.
Kim: 00:03:11 Yeah. I'm just, I've never had that happen with zoom. I'm like, I do this all the time. So you know what's funny? Yeah, Robert, they're saying they love StreamYard. I do too. I, it's so funny. I had paid for it then I was like, I don't need another tool. I think I may need another tool. Anyways. Okay, so first of all, you guys, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited and before I even introduce Michelle, I have a huge confession to make and that is that we did a podcast interview last fall. My life was chaos. There was an audio anyways, I didn't publish it. So Michelle, thank you for being a kind human being and not, not hating me for being a complete numpty with that. So thank you for that.
Michelle: 00:03:52 It's fine if I the the minute that I'm perfect Kim.
Michelle: 00:03:55 I'll let you know that
Michelle: 00:03:58 I'm not going to be today.
Kim: 00:03:59 You don't walk on water?
Michelle: 00:03:59 No.
Kim: 00:04:00 Okay, good. Um, but here's the deal guys. So first of all, Michelle Hunter like blew my mind. You guys. I keep feeling and I'm going to, I don't know why I keep calling you Michelle Hunter, but Michelle and this technology threw me for a loop today, but blew my mind you guys, when we talked, I was like, why doesn't everybody know what you're doing? Why don't they know who you are? And it was like this magic, like just it flows.
Kim: 00:04:23 So what we're gonna do is we're going to talk about something that I have gotten a little bit obsessed with lately, which is offers, offers and pricing, right? And I've really started to learn the difference between your product and your offer are two different things. But before we jump into the conversation and please you guys as we go along, everybody came back. Thank you. You guys are fantastic. Um, and if you can't, I would love it if you'd share this. Give us some likes and love. Michelle, give us a little bit of your background though. Tell everybody who you are.
Michelle: 00:04:50 Sure. Um, I'm a copywriter and marketing strategist. Actually, I need to flip that. I'm a marketing strategist and a copywriter and that's a positioning shift I've made in my business in the last year, so I'm not perfect either. I work with creative entrepreneurs and established professionals to help refine business models, refine offers and then develop core messaging around that. So that's what I do. It's wonderful. What we're going to talk about is right in that sweet spot. Um, what else do you want to know? I live in Michigan, is cold here. I have a Home Office that's, we're in the middle of a house remodel. So this used to be a bedroom clearly and you know, whatever. What do you want to know?
Kim: 00:05:34 No, that's awesome. That's fantastic. So, um, the thing is like what, so like I'm going to back up a little bit, you guys and you know, like, I don't know about you Michelle, but I have a tendency to do lists this with, um, people that I follow and listen to. And I've done this 52 times with click funnels, but I watch what Russell Brunson does. I loved expert secrets and I have actually recently just jumped into their hundred day challenge because I kind of wanted to funnel hack it, right? I would love to do a content challenge and he has been drilling this home. I don't know for how long, but the hook, story, and the offer. Right. And I would love, because nobody else got to hear the story that you shared with me. I love the example of the two friends on the walk with the apple could you share that. Let's get this kicked off and I'm going to just shut up.
Michelle: 00:06:23 I can. So one of the things you'll find out if you spend a lot of time talking to me is that I use silly examples to illustrate points. I think that otherwise we get confused about language. So that's where this comes from. Um, and what I want to say is, first of all, I believe that all of marketing is just a conversation. And so we overthink it because we think it's something crazy that we don't know how to do. And actually we know, oh, I went to CMU too. Hello?
Kim: 00:06:51 I'm going to share. We've got a lot of participation going all right.
Michelle: 00:06:54 Um, we know, so we all know how to talk to each other, right?
Michelle: 00:06:59 So this example comes out of that. So instead of thinking about marketing, I want to just tell you a story. So let's say Kim, that Kim and I are walking through a park. Kim and I are walking, it's a beautiful summer day unlike today when it's snowpocalypse, here in Michigan. It's a beautiful summer day. We're walking along, it's like mid afternoon. And as we're walking, if you can just picture this. I have a big bag on my shoulder and we're just kind of, um, we've met kind of casually and we're talking and that's, we're talking, Kim says to me, "you know, I've got to tell you I'm really, I'm sorry, but I'm not feeling real great right now. I'm feeling kind of out of it, kind of spacey, kind of tired. I don't know what's going on."
Michelle: 00:07:36 Okay. So I, that's a normal thing that might happen in a conversation, right? So me as a friend, I would say to Kim, "So why is that? Why are you feeling that way? And she would say, you know, "I, I dunno, it could be that I'm getting sick. I don't really think that's it though. I did. I skipped lunch today. That could be it."
Michelle: 00:07:55 And then that was my opening to say, "Oh, you skipped lunch. That's your problem. You're hungry." And Kim at this point would nod her head in my ideal conversation without her having to go, you know, that is the problem. I'm hungry.
Michelle: 00:08:08 That's the beginning of a marketing conversation she's expressing felt need to me. I don't feel good. I've got this pain point. I've got this issue. And before I ever engage with her about an offer, I'm helping us come to agreement on the problem.
Michelle: 00:08:23 So now in this conversation, we've just agreed all the problem is Kim's hungry. So at this point I'm going to step in and offer a solution. "You know what? You really need him as a snack and you probably don't need sometime of a vending machine because a snickers bar, no matter what the commerce, no matter what the commercial say, you're going to have a sugar bounce from that. Right, you really probably need something healthy. And I remember cause you are my friend that you're trying to eat more healthy anyway, right?" And she's like, "Yup, Yup, that's the solution."
Michelle: 00:08:50 And so now we're agreeing on the solution. "You need a healthy snack." Notice I have not offered her anything yet. We're agreeing to the problem. We're agreeing to the solution. There's no offer here. Now here's the offer. I happen to know that in this big bag I have on my shoulder, I have a beautiful apple and so I'm going to say to Kim, "you know what? I have an apple in my bag. Would you like that?"
Michelle: 00:09:12 I have it and I'm going to pull it out and say, 'here you go. It doesn't, this doesn't this look like a healthy apple? Look at it probably tastes good too, you want it?" And she hopefully at this point she's going to say yes if she doesn't, now I have to do some persuasive selling about the features and benefits of an apple.
Michelle: 00:09:29 My point is, and our offers, we skip all of the stuff that came before the offer or the apple. And in our content, we start with, "I make apples, I have a great apple, it's beautiful. Look at this. I have green ones, I've read boys. Would you like a green or a red one? I'm an expert. I can help you kick an apple!" Who gives a flip if we don't agree that I'm hungry and that a healthy solution would be an apple. Right. You see? So that's know. I also do that. So I these track of what I'm saying...
Kim: 00:09:58 I do all the time.
Michelle: 00:09:59 You can count on this? Like this is a big thing for me I enjoy.
Michelle: 00:10:02 So when you're looking at your marketing, like for instance, all of you, I mean not right now cause you'd surf away from us. But when we get done with this, open up your website, if you have one and look and see, look and see what it says.
Michelle: 00:10:15 Does it lead with, here's the problem, does it lead with, do you have, do you feel this way? Does it even lead with a solution? Like you need a new this or that or do you just start describing the stinking apple? Because the reason things aren't converting is people don't realize they're even hungry. Like that's they're not ready. That's, that's basically the story. Is that what you wanted me to share?
Kim: 00:10:38 That's totally the story. And it's funny because I'm sitting there and it's like, I don't know how many of you guys are listening to this thinking, wow, I have to reframe a ton of things I do. For me, like I even have a tagline on my site, "Do business as only you can do." And it's like, what the hell does that even mean Kim? Like nobody knows. So you do business. What does that mean? And it's not been for lack of awareness that it needs to be changed. I haven't gotten to it, but it gets me super excited because I feel like this all ties into, not that everything is content, my little thing, but all the sudden it makes marketing fun and it makes it way easier. But I think a lot of people, what I see is that people will do things like, um, and I don't want to call them out.
Kim: 00:11:20 I don't know if Matt, somebody is on here, but he asked, somebody asked him in a private group today that the new was site was up, it looked beautiful, they do agency work and it was something about, you know, connecting the dots between you and your audience.
Kim: 00:11:33 And I was like, what, what, what, what's the problem? Like, you know, and at what? And it's just because I'm becoming aware of it. So you know, you guys in, please let me know if you've got questions, but I'd like to know where do you start. Right?
Kim: 00:11:46 So, and if anybody wants, and Michelle, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but where do you start with clients? Where does somebody have a specific business, because you know, I can jump in with the planner, like we did that so quick and so fast. It's like the 'ultimate planner' for the tagline is dumb. And I've already started working sort of on the brand story and the messaging. You know, it's funny to Michelle if I like, I'm looking at the camera, so I look like I'm looking here. So if I'm not responding...
Michelle: 00:12:12 You're fine.
Kim: 00:12:12 It's a, where do you start with that, right? Because it's, it's sort of all of this behind the scenes work that needs to happen and people don't know where to begin.
Michelle: 00:12:19 Right.
Michelle: 00:12:20 So, um, this is what I recommend with my clients. So part of what I do is I meet with clients where they're at and then we go through this process. Um, and it's kind of like, it's like physical therapy for marketing. Like, you don't know why you're doing this exercise, but just shut up and do it. Like that's my coach cause we'll get to the end and your marketing will be really strong. Powerful, right?
Michelle: 00:12:42 So, so start no matter what the offer is and we can take the planner. So maybe it would be helpful if no one's going to volunteer or you didn't really ask for one. Let's just take the planner and talk through that if you are, I'm totally game. Yeah. So what problem does the planner solve?
Kim: 00:12:57 Creating a content strategy.
Michelle: 00:12:59 Why would I want to create a content strategy?
Kim: 00:13:01 So that you can drive business leads and sales. Really, you need a content strategy so that your content is effective and it works.
Michelle: 00:13:07 Okay. So the problem actually is that my content is not effective.
Kim: 00:13:12 Yes.
Michelle: 00:13:13 Yes. And so how, what does it feel like to have that problem?
Kim: 00:13:17 Frustrating like you're creating and frustrating is the biggest point.
Michelle: 00:13:21 Okay. Frustrating. Maybe overwhelming cause you're trying to solve a problem yourself
Kim: 00:13:27 Wasting time.
Michelle: 00:13:32 You start questioning when you have this problem you start questioning, should I even be in this business? Like everyone tells me creating content should work. But no matter what I put out there and nobody engages with it, it's like poopy, I go to my computer, I don't know what to write. It's, you know, that's what that whole thing feels. Right?
Kim: 00:13:49 Right.
Michelle: 00:13:50 So the reason we spent this is like the wax on wax off part. The reason we sit here and think a lot about, or I guide you to think about what the problem feels like emotively is that we don't buy on logic. We buy on emotion. And so we justify with logic. So you do have to make a logical case for why your offer delivers value, but the hook is never logical. Right?
Michelle: 00:14:15 So you, I'm never going to be, you could I actually like Broccoli, but I just use this cause lots of people don't, you're never going to persuade me to eat broccoli like as an exercise, embrace Broccoli eating as my lifestyle, unless you hooked me emotionally on what it would feel like to be healthier. If you just give me like statistics on what Broccoli will do for me., big deal.
Michelle: 00:14:37 Like that's why everyone needs pizza. It's not because we think pizza is healthy, it's because it tastes good and it makes us feel good. So, um, so we have to, as entrepreneurs we have to really think about... we have to really think about what the problem is and what the problem feels like.
Michelle: 00:14:56 So if you notice Kim, and I'm not put, trying to put you on the spot, I think you're brilliant. So don't take me on this critically.
Kim: 00:15:01 Put me on the spot, it's all good.
Michelle: 00:15:03 But you, what you thought the problem was, was actually to close. The problem's further back.
Kim: 00:15:09 Yeah.
Michelle: 00:15:09 The problem is where the emotion lives, that's where the problem is. And then, um, then you walk it forward to where your product is.
Michelle: 00:15:18 So, okay, so does every feature... we're going back to the planner, does every feature of the planner align with that problem? That you need a con you need content strategy and you need it because you feel like your content is not engaging, you're frustrated, you're whatever. So does every piece of the planner align with solving the problem with frustration around your content.
Kim: 00:15:41 Yeah, absolutely.
Michelle: 00:15:42 Every single one, there's nothing extra you added in just because it's pretty or cause it seemed like you might have to do it or whatever.
Kim: 00:15:51 No, no. I mean there's... pardon me?
Michelle: 00:15:56 I feel like I'm attacking you. You're not prepared for this.
Kim: 00:15:59 No, I'm like, I'm thinking through each page. I mean we definitely have sort of a recap and whatnot, but the, the, the strategy that we put into it is so that you can create content based on a goal that you can measure. So you can see that it's effective and you put a plan into place. So I would say I would say yes.
Michelle: 00:16:19 Okay. Is so other side of that question, are there enough features for me to achieve the result that you're looking for? Or is there extra I have to add into that? Like do I know how to set a goal? Do I have education to go with that?
Kim: 00:16:35 We actually do have education. So we've got a masterclass on using the planner for the early adopters and we're incorporating training. So there is that how to go deeper and what's behind creating each piece of the planner.
Michelle: 00:16:47 Here's why that's relevant. So it doesn't surprise me that you're brilliant at this, but here's, here's what, so Kudos to you. Here's what we all do though... frequently. And so I'm glad you didn't do that. I'm not hearing that you did that.
Michelle: 00:16:59 But what we all do is we um, number one a common error is we don't start with a problem. Common error number two, if we understand the problem, we load up features that actually aren't aligned with the problem because we're trying to get to a price point in our head.
Michelle: 00:17:17 So, or we see what other people do. So like me, I'm a copywriter, so maybe other copywriters include Facebook content. So even though Facebook content might not be something every client needs, a common mistake I might make is to add Facebook content into the scope of every project because I'm trying to justify a price point.
Michelle: 00:17:38 That type of reverse engineering where we start with the price we want to get to and then we add features. That's a really common mistake and it doesn't help you at all.
Kim: 00:17:46 Can I jump in because I think I know personally, I know we've got a lot of white people on here. I'm and hi Larry too. I'm just like noticing who else has joined and Andrea. Thank you guys.
Kim: 00:17:55 Um, but I did that with websites, years ago and I don't know how many people do this, but it was like, okay, well this is what I'm going to charge. So I would literally list out all the plugins and it's like what the bucket is Yoast? Like the client didn't care. Right. There was everything in that proposal was jargon based, I should say that I felt justified in supported it, made it, and the intent back then, because I never want to do websites, but the intent was almost to make them overwhelmed. Like, wow, this is so much like, this is a great offer. Right? As, as opposed to what the heck are you doing for me besides a website with a bunch of stuff that I have no idea what it means.
Michelle: 00:18:36 So, so here's, here's a little soundbite. I tend to, Christine Thatcher, if you know her, she's a really good friend of mine and a strategic partner, and she talks to me about how I speak in sound soundbites. So if here's a sound bite for you, um, related to this and for everybody... "Confidence is quiet."
Michelle: 00:18:54 So if you find yourself adding, adding, adding to justify, to justify, to justify, that's an indication that you're insecure. So those when I go out to a website and I look at a services page and it says, "and you get this and you get this and you get this and you get this and you get a set of Ginsu knives, and if you try now, I'll give you a discount."
Michelle: 00:19:14 It's too loud. So confidence is very quiet. Um, confidence just says, this is what I do. This is why you need it. Here's how you work with, with me. That's confidence. You're not trying to justify or not trying to display something that you're questioning yourself. So, so there's that soundbite. Um, just a minute while I capture the thought...
Kim: 00:19:40 that's okay. Because all I could think about Michelle was, oh my God, I'm going to totally make quote images of confidence is quiet. Michelle Hunter. You guys will be seeing them everywhere.
Kim: 00:19:52 And, and I hope if you remember your train of thought and just shut me up, but what I was going to say is it reminds me a lot of what I see people doing, and I just call it pontificating on social media, where there's these statements, right? And I'm like, Hey, stop shaming and judging people about what they aren't. There's a whole rant podcast coming from me on that, but this, these declarations of statements, and I'm like, if you're doing what you're doing and you're here to serve, you don't need to do that. Like, no, I just, I think about people I know who have really successful businesses and they're running their businesses and they're talking to their customers, they're not doing that nonsense.
Michelle: 00:20:29 Okay. So I did think of my point and it actually, you gave me a great segueway into that. So I believe that everything that we put out there in terms of messaging, everything we put out on our website, all the content we put out should go through a filter of our ideal client.
Michelle: 00:20:46 And so one of my pet peeves is all of this. "Who is your ideal client? Oh, she drinks lattes. She has 4.3 children. She has a little dog. She's in love with Brad Pitt." Like that's all B.S.. Who gives a crap about that? Right?
Kim: 00:21:02 Right.
Michelle: 00:21:02 What I care about is not demographics or even some of that emotive who ha, it's what is the problem? What is the situation that your client is in. Because remember the marketing conversation starts with the problem.
Michelle: 00:21:15 So I, for instance, I work with creative entrepreneurs and established professionals who have done everything they can do in the DIY stuff and they've achieved some level of success so they know what they do and they're sort of confident in it, but they're plateaued, right?
Michelle: 00:21:32 Because they can't uplevel their prices. They can't reach a new audience they can't quite step into any kind of street credit with what they do. I help you bust through that plateau and get your marketing aligned. So that's what I do. So I don't want to talk to you if you're just starting, I mean, no offense if there's someone here the just starting, but you don't have, unless you're real clear on what you're doing, you're not ready to talk to me. Right?
Michelle: 00:21:57 So that's what I mean about ideal client. Who is that person? What do they need? Where are they at in terms of business? Where what are they feeling? You have to start with that and then everything you say or do content related in a content related way, it needs to filter through that. So you're talking to them. So the only time I would make a manifesto, like I see online all the time, like you're talking about, "I believe every dog should be a wants a dog. I believe that we should all protect the environment. I believe that Burgundy is the best color for professional people to wear. And this is why I live my life as a Vegan who lives in Michigan and enjoy a snow. If you don't like that about me and we can't work together."
Michelle: 00:22:39 Okay. What value is any of that?
Kim: 00:22:41 Yeah,
Kim: 00:22:42 But why do manifestos work. Can I ask you that? Cause I, I was funny, I was like, I like this idea of creating a movement and sort of like having all of that behind you. And I think it, some of those can draw in your ideal audience. Right? So where is that balance?
Michelle: 00:22:59 When it's an intersection between you and your ideal client. So, for instance, I recently finished working with a client who's a web designer and she has a very strong, um, ideal client portfolio, a picture because she's an adventurer. She is a risk taker. She's very innovative and she's very missional, meaning she cares about certain causes. So she's decided that she only wants to work with people who are aligned similarly in terms of what they believe in, how they feel about taking risks. And so all of her messaging is designed to create a circle, draw a circle around her that includes the client.
Michelle: 00:23:42 That's what a manifesto is for. So for instance, let's say that I what is some kind of not too controversial. Oh, I'm a Vegan. You probably wouldn't know that because I'm kind of, you know, fat. But I'm a vegan. Generally there aren't fat vegans, but did, you know the Oreos are Vegan, just so you know.
Michelle: 00:23:58 So like there are fat vegans in the world, so I'm a Vegan, I'm a vegan.
Kim: 00:24:01 oh... I'm dying. Okay
Michelle: 00:24:01 So let's say that I had a, I had a service that we're veganism was part of my ideal client profile. So if I made a manifesto on I'm Vegan and here's why, even though it has nothing to do with copywriting, what I'm doing is because that's a commonality, a point of commonality between myself and my ideal client - It makes a connection. So that's why I use it and that's when it's effective. Okay.
Michelle: 00:24:29 I'm also a quilter. So I'm a copywriter who's a Vegan, who's a quilter. My clients don't give a rip about that at all. Because it has nothing to do with my ideal client. So if I did a manifesto on my website about veganism and how in my quilting, I only source fabrics that's made with no animal cruelty to animals or whatever the flip, and I put that out there, I'm not drawing a circle, I'm just trying to be authentic by putting out there things that people don't care about.
Kim: 00:24:59 Just to share with that with you.
Michelle: 00:25:01 Thank you. Eric. You want to can give you a paypal link? Just send, you know, change is accepted.
Michelle: 00:25:07 So, but my point is so a lot of times, um, and obviously I'll make like 15 points cause I'm just rambling now. But my point, my point is a lot of times we think authenticity means people have to know me and who I am. It's actually not that.
Michelle: 00:25:28 For marketing purposes, authenticity means you have to look for points of commonality between yourself and your ideal client and draw those circles.
Michelle: 00:25:36 So it's not relevant if it's not relevant, if it's not a point of commonality, it's not relevant. So if I were only going to target people in the Midwest, I can make a point about how I live in Michigan. But if I want to work with people who live anywhere, it doesn't matter where I live. And so talking about that, doesn't make me more authentic, it just contributes to the noise.
Michelle: 00:25:57 And again, remember confidence is quiet. So what I'm trying to do is filtered down the noise and get to a clear, concise message that builds bridges. Is that helping?
Kim: 00:26:10 No, it's all brilliant. And I agree with you, Eric. Week we could have paid, right? Is so with the ideal client piece, because I see that stuff too with your "create your ideal client Avatar. And it is".
Kim: 00:26:23 Now you've got, so you've got the demographics and then you've got the, what do they call it, the s the emotional, what's the word? There's other graphics, the in they're like, I don't know what it is, but anyways, there's another that fits the emotional element of that person. And it's kind of funny because I think it helps to have a target person. If you're writing. Like oftentimes I think of maybe where I was a few years ago, it was sort of who I'm talking to. Like I've got a person just because it makes it easier for me to write. But you know, even to this day I'm like, who is my ideal client?
Kim: 00:26:58 And I just, I hate those exercises. There's nothing about doing it, you know, or it's like, or, or talk, I'm sorry, last thing...
Michelle: 00:27:04 I'm dying because I had the answer.
Kim: 00:27:06 Okay, good. Or it's like where you know, where is your ideal client? I'm like, they're kind of everywhere now. There's so many platforms, so I'll shut up.
Michelle: 00:27:13 So here's the problem. The problem is that you're looking for the ideal client before you position the offer.
Michelle: 00:27:19 Your ideal client comes out of the positioning. So, so Kim, I think everyone in the world should work with you, but obviously you a broad ideal client doesn't help you, right? You need to get more detailed. So the question to ask yourself is, who is this offer for?
Michelle: 00:27:34 And you know, spoiler alert, the right answer is not everyone. That is not the right answer. So who is this offer for? And here's why you need to ask yourself that... People buy because of the "so that", so, this pen includes ink so that you can write, I don't buy this pen cause I think it's a brilliant decorator piece. Although maybe if you watch HGTV, you might think so. I buy this time, because of the ink. Because at the end of the day I can write with it and I actually specifically buy this time, because it's erasable ink and I am an analog person.
Michelle: 00:28:14 I have a paper journal and our planner and I want to erase crap. So I have an erasable pen, but the ideal, so... That's the so that.
Michelle: 00:28:23 So, who is this offer for and then who will get the most value from this offer?
Michelle: 00:28:29 Okay, so if I'm a hairstylist and I do my best work doing up-do's for people with really long hair, once I understand the value that I provide and who this offer is for, who is an up-do for? It's for somebody with long hair that is going to an event. Right? So now I know my ideal client is someone with long hair, who's going to an event, who needs a certain kind of look and what does it feel like when you need that certain kind of look? It feels like maybe you're a little insecure or maybe you just want to have good photography or maybe you just want to, so it doesn't matter if she likes cappuccino. What matters is how long her hair is, right? And that she has an event. Because if I had, I don't obviously have really long hair, but if I had really long hair,
Kim: 00:29:15 I will pay to have someone do my hair everyday. Go ahead.
Michelle: 00:29:18 Well you might, but if I'm working here in my home office where, full disclosure, I have like leggings on from the waist down because no one can see and big fuzzy slippers. So if I'm working in my Home Office, I'm not paying 50 bucks for an updo everyday. Like I love my husband, but he can just deal with a ponytail, right? So, so my updo service is not for everybody. It's specifically for people with long hair. Now is this specifically for women maybe? Or maybe I like doing updo's for guys who have like a man bun. Who knows? So you can, there's some variant.
Michelle: 00:29:52 But what's important is that the, so that has to be relevant. So people who write in braille don't need this pen. So the "so that" isn't going to do anything for them. Right. It's not going to people who, like my son, who don't write at all and do everything with their phone and text, they're not going to need a pen either.
Michelle: 00:30:12 So, the reason we struggle so hard to come up with our ideal client is we start there and then we develop offers for that person. Instead of starting with what do I do well? What do I do better than most people in my space? What gaps do I see in the market that I feel comfortable standing in and providing value?
Michelle: 00:30:34 Okay, now that I understand the value, who is that for? Who gets the most value from that? Oh, now I can think about my ideal client. Do you see how we kind of put the cart before the horse?
Kim: 00:30:46 Absolutely. And that's where it, or a lot of times it's like, I want to do this. Um, I'm going to make a product. And it's, it's, I don't know, you know, it's, it's very backwards in a sense. And when I, I don't know if we talked about this last time, but when I look back at having, I want to say 2016 I was just like, I got to go back to fundamentals and I really started kind of diving into this. I kind of call it behind the scenes work cause nobody sees you sitting and writing 10 you know, 10 headlines or 50 headlines. Nobody sees you. Like you know, I went to an event a couple of weeks ago and I was so amped on it. I came back and I spent four hours writing a 3,400 word post and then an hour recording the podcast. I'm just waiting on a link to publish it, but I was like, nobody sees all that stuff that happens behind the scenes. So it feels in a way like we're not working. But yet if you don't get that right, you're going to be banging your head against a wall for years, which is kind of what I felt like I did.
Michelle: 00:31:44 We all do that.
Michelle: 00:31:46 Here's another, I just have to say this, this another common mistakes is we're talking about pricing and we're talking about offers. Here's another really common mistake that drives me crazy that lots of people do.
Michelle: 00:31:56 So if I'm an established, oh good, if I'm an established entrepreneur and I have a core offer that's making me money, so you have something that's bringing in money, maybe it's not bringing in as much as you want or maybe you're kind of bored with it, or maybe you're not sure it's profitable, but you have messaging that's working. It's converting. People are coming to your business, they're buying your thing.
Michelle: 00:32:21 A lot of us get shiny offers syndrome, shiny object syndrome, and so all of a sudden we have this idea and we go, oh, you know what? I could also do this other thing and it's profitable for somebody else and maybe it'll work. Here's the question to ask yourself, do these two offers have the same or similar ideal clients?
Michelle: 00:32:41 Because if they don't, you're fragmenting your message and confused people don't buy. That's another sound bite confused people don't buy.
Kim: 00:32:49 You're going to get like 52 quote images from this. I'm just telling you
Michelle: 00:32:52 Honda to your website and you're trying to appeal to two different people. Now I'm confused. Should I even be here? Like are you talking to me? I don't know. Can you work with me? I'm not sure.
Michelle: 00:33:04 That so you can, for instance, I can, if, if I'm full, I already told you who my ideal client is. I'm working with established professionals and creative entrepreneurs that have achieved some level of success. If I want to create a new offer for people who are just getting started, I can do that. As long as that's the only thing that changes in the ideal client, they're still the same personality wise, it's still the same. They're just earlier in the journey. So now I'm still speaking to the same person just at a different place in their entrepreneurial journey. That's okay. It's not too terribly fragmented.
Michelle: 00:33:42 But if I'm making, let's say I'm making dog beds, so I'm speaking to dog owners and all of a sudden I decide that I'm also going to make harnesses for Alpacas. You can say to yourself, well this is still, I'm still talking to people who love animals. Yes. But you're talking to Alpaca owners and dog owners who are probably different people. Now if you make dog beds, can you also branch into making cat beds? Probably can because this still basically the same person, just slightly different like the variant
Kim: 00:34:17 Can I jump in?
Michelle: 00:34:17 Does that makes sense?
Kim: 00:34:19 It totally makes sense. Then Eric, I'll, I'll pull your comment up in just one sec too. So it made me think also as, as I've gotten really clear and kind of having made this pivot to content marketing from WordPress, I dunno, a couple of years ago kind of, I, you know, when I went to this event I, I went, I got to share the planner, talk about content strategy and, and we were doing these little side kind of conversations and someone said, "oh, you know, you could start offering content strategy and doing done for you for people"
Kim: 00:34:47 First of all, I'm like, no, nope. I got out of service work for for many reasons, but no, and I'm gonna go with no. But, at the same time I don't want to serve somebody who just wants to hire content writers. Right? Right. So even though content, it's all in line, it's content strategy. I'm like, I want to help people who want to have a brand and and kind of make an impact and feel like they've got something to say and they need to get their message out and they're ready. Whether or not they hire someone on their team or bring somebody in-house is very different than somebody who's like, I just need to hire a content graders. Does it? So does, is that a decent, okay...
Michelle: 00:35:21 Cause...So here's the commonalities. So you're looking for someone for whom the thought work is really important. So I might, for me the thought work is really important. Obviously I'm a writer, but let's say I wasn't a writer. I might then intentionally hire someone who was a writer. But what's important to me is that my thoughts, my thought work gets shared. And so that makes me aligned with you.
Michelle: 00:35:43 If I own a business and I just know that blogging is a good strategy and I want to just get lots of content out there cause I believe that inbound content marketing works, but I don't really, you know, I just want the message to kind of be on brand. I'm probably not your people, right? That's somebody who's going to hire it done. And that's why this filter of your ideal client is so important.
Kim: 00:36:04 Oh my God. You're so gold.
Michelle: 00:36:05 Thank you.
Michelle: 00:36:07 Yes. Okay. Well you got plenty of space so I'm, okay. So Eric was saying too, um, and I just bear with me guys. I'm going to read this because I'm going to use this as a podcast to, uh, "for all the reasons it has been talked about it, what I had in mind when I created the banner on my website. But I have not tested it and I do not know if the message comes across. Tagline coaching helps bridge the gap from where you are to where you want to be." And then it says this isn't him. He's got an image of a bridge on a road in the mountains. So to me, I'm going to let you go. But I'm like, what does that mean still?
Michelle: 00:36:42 So, so first of all, my intention is never to be critical, but I am very candid. So please don't let me offend you. Um, just understand that's not my heart. So my question is, first of all,
Michelle: 00:36:53 from where to where, like where do I want to go? Can you get more dialed in? Is coaching, is this business coaching? Is it life coaching? What is the problem that this coaching is solving? And can you dial into that? That's number one. Secondly, I don't ever like definitions, um, as banner lines because they're flat, if you ask me.
Michelle: 00:37:16 So, do you have to lead with the problem? No. Can you be creative and like back into the problem? Yes. And I'm not saying this because I think my tagline is amazing or because I'm perfect. I'm just saying it because it's an example.
Michelle: 00:37:28 So the tag, the tagline on my website is "step confidently into a higher level of success." I'm speaking to the reverse of the problems so you can kind of unpack what the problem is. Remember I said I'm looking for people who feel stagnated, who feel like they've plateaued and I want to give them confidence. I want them to be able to break through that plateau. So step confidently into a higher level of success.
Michelle: 00:37:53 That's like the solution. But the problem is inherent in that. Does that, so I wrote that because I'm a copywriter and that's what I do. If you're writing your own copy, don't start there...
Michelle: 00:38:05 Because it's, you have to get that right. And I know that that's right cause it's been converting for me. That's also the true test. Um, so coaching bridges the gap from x to y. It's a definition, so it's flat A and then B, what is 'X' and what is 'Y' and how, you know, I need coaching?
Michelle: 00:38:25 The bigger pro, the, the, what I would recommend you do is step back and say who is this offer for? Who is it really for and what value will they get from it?
Michelle: 00:38:37 Now, let's say that you want, so kind of coaching. Let's say that you're a relationship coach and there's a couple that struggling with divorce. So instead of saying coaching is a bridge from x to y, you might say, um, "ready to feel engaged in your marriage again?" Coaching can help you get there or, or more effectively. I help people get there or imagine the a better marriage...
Michelle: 00:39:05 Your marriage can be better than you ever thought possible. Here's how.
Michelle: 00:39:09 But even then you're again speaking to the solution. So if we step back and we speak to the problem, you know, feeling like there's no... Feeling like things will never get any better or feeling like there's no hope, you know, contemplating murder cause divorce is socially unacceptable. Like these are things that are going to hook people into and have them nod.
Michelle: 00:39:32 What you want to have happen in your header or your banner on a webpage, you want someone to read that and immediately go, "he's talking to me." That is what you want. Anything else doesn't work.
Michelle: 00:39:45 And you also want people to read it and go, this isn't for me because it's okay if they swim away, right? You don't want to deal with people who are not a fit for your offer because that just gums up your sales process, they're going to say no to you anyway.
Michelle: 00:40:00 It's, and they're gonna get there, you know it's going to stop.
Michelle: 00:40:02 So for instance, I think Kim's planner's brilliant, but if I'm not a writer and I'm not going to try to plan out content, if I'm just going to use it to plan my next yoga class and I download it or I buy it and I have it and I start using it, I'm going to send her all kinds of messages like 'it's lovely and I like the pages and stuff, but I can't plan my yoga class. Like I don't get it at like, where's the time stuff? I don't understand what this is for?' She doesn't want that in her customer service. So it's okay if the message doesn't resonate with your non ideal client.
Michelle: 00:40:34 I'm rambling again. Interrupt.
Kim: 00:40:36 No, I love it. I love it. Cause my brain, I'm like, don't see if I can remember the 82 questions I had, but I did want to comment too because uh, Larry was saying also he does the same type of analysis for topics that he should discuss on YouTube. He wants to create videos about WordPress, but his statistics show people are interested in MailChimp. So for him, if he wants to provide the right value to viewers, he'll focus on MailChimp. Assuming Larry, that that's in alignment with your business, which I know it is anyways.
Michelle: 00:41:01 And when you say people, the question I have immediately is your people? Or just people in general because, because, um, because if for instance, um, if I'm trying to think of something, Oh this is, oh, okay.
Michelle: 00:41:20 So let's say I want to do, I want to do a podcast on coffee, but statistics say that more people who come to my website drink tea. Okay. But if statistics just say that more people in America like coffee, and I want to talk about coffee or I want to talk about tea. My point is when you determine what more people like you need to figure out, are those more people? Are Those people in your circle? Because if they're not, who cares what they like?
Michelle: 00:41:44 Like I'm might, you know, I imagine not to be offensive, but I imagine that the pope wants to talk about Catholicism. Well that's lovely and I imagine Catholics want to listen to him, but probably Baptists don't. So should he talk about what Baptists want to talk about? My guess would be no, because they're not his audience. And you know, not to like grab religion, which is a hot button, but whatever.
Kim: 00:42:06 But you grabbed it.
Michelle: 00:42:07 It's what came to mind.
Michelle: 00:42:10 So I think always putting it through that filter. Another thing to think about is content we create should always answer a question for our client, for our ideal client, even if it's not in question answer format.
Michelle: 00:42:25 So the, so for instance, if I write a blog post about snow in Michigan and it has nothing to do with my work and it doesn't answer a question for my clients, I'm wasting my time. It can be a very lovely blog post. It will certainly demonstrate my writing ability, but it's pointless.
Michelle: 00:42:42 However, if I write a question, if I read a blog post on pricing, I know that people ask questions about pricing all the time. So just about whatever I write within that subject is going to align with a question that someone in my ideal client base has in some way. So even if all I'm doing is ranting, I'm at least sharing my views on something that may be my ideal client has dealt with. Does that make sense? Like I think having that filter to decide what you're going to talk about is helpful.
Kim: 00:43:15 It is, and it's interesting because, um, and let me know if you're not okay on time Michelle, cause I know we're, I'm because I'm like, wait, I know we're going to, I, I would love to do a second session with you on pricing because I'm ready to go. But, um, no, I had to, I lost my own train of thought here. Um,
Michelle: 00:43:34 and I have a perfect thing to say so..
Kim: 00:43:37 no, go ahead. I totally lost my train of thought. Welcome to my head.
Michelle: 00:43:42 Obviously, I do the same thing. So first of all, a second training is fine. Um, I'm willing to say yes to that because this is fun this is what I like to do. Um, but as far as pricing, so you know, I've been talking about common mistakes I see people make in the world. One of the, another one of them is around pricing. So the reason your business, many times I find the reason creative people have nonprofitable businesses or struggle with profitability in their businesses is because, yes, please.
Kim: 00:44:11 FYI everybody
Michelle: 00:44:13 Is because we look at pricing from the wrong lens. So we, we go out to this, we either look at the market and we say, well, our competitors are charging $1,000 for this. So what can I do for $1,000? Or what can I add to this to make it worth $1,000? Or this is what the market will bear. So let the market tell us what our pricing is. That's mistake number one. Mistake number two is we, um, mistake number two escapes me. So this is my brain too what we fail to do is we fail to think about,
Michelle: 00:44:46 How much we need to charge for it to be profitable. So we need to think about number one, what is my time worth?
Michelle: 00:44:53 What does it truly worth? And that that's a math equation. It's not a value judgment. If you sit down and you say, what do I need to make? What do I need to bring home and take it to my family? And then what do I need to do to keep the lights on in my business? And we add those two together. This is what my monthly revenue I generate is. So what piece of that is this offer? And it just becomes like a numbers game.
Michelle: 00:45:16 So you figured that out. You figure out what your minimum hourly rate is. Not that I'm saying you charge hourly, I'm just saying, my time has to be worth a certain amount because I have to pay rent, I have to pay for the utilities here, I'd have to pay, I have a contractor that I pay, et cetera. You know, their costs, right?
Michelle: 00:45:33 Plus, I want to make some money. Then what will it take for me to deliver on this software? How much time will it really take? And not like mystery time. I think I ought to be able to write a blog post blog post in an hour. Okay. How do I know that have tracked it? Do I have an idea. So if I'm writing content for someone, is it really an hour or is it an hour and a half? Is it an average of an hour? Is it, what are the factors that make it an hour? Like do a little work on that, figure that out. Um, and then what are the extra costs that are associated? Like I have a contractor or whatever. So now you come to a minimum price point.
Michelle: 00:46:12 So for instance, I know if I'm going to write content for a website, it costs me x amount. That's my minimum costs. That does not mean that's the price. That means that's the minimum I can quote and be profitable. So if I just really like you, Kim, and I want to discount or whatever, I can't go below that number 'x' (is my camera. I can't figure it out). I can't go below that number 'x'. Because if I am, I'm losing money. Right. But the pricing that I'm going to try to get is actually 'y' a different number and what is that number? It's based on the value, the real or the perceived value that the client's going to get.
Michelle: 00:46:52 So, if I know that by working with me for coaching, my client is going to be able to go make 60,000 extra dollars next year.
Michelle: 00:47:03 I might charge six or 10 grand for that, even if my cost is only two.
Kim: 00:47:08 Yeah.
Michelle: 00:47:09 Because there's enough value there. Like I can make that conversation... I can justify the return on investment.
Kim: 00:47:15 Well, and you're clear on your message and who you're serving and so it's, you know, which I, I was just bringing that back full circle for people because there is the value in taking the time to do that work. Right? There isn't this, what does everyone else charging? What should I charge for this? When you are super clear on who you serve, the problem you solve, it's way easier then to plug in a math equation, right?
Michelle: 00:47:38 Soundbite alert. Okay, you marketing, okay, how do I say this?
Michelle: 00:47:45 The price you charged for something that this, your ability to command a certain price in the market has very little to do with value and almost everything to do with marketing.
Michelle: 00:47:56 So I can tell you that this pen is worth worth a dollar and if you're a Walmart shopper, you're probably going to agree with me that this pen is worth a dollar. But if I'm a really phenomenal marketer, if I can create story around this pen about the value it provides, I might be able to get you to pay me 25 bucks for this pen.
Michelle: 00:48:16 The difference is how much work I put into the marketing message and the presentation and the consistency of the story that I tell and weave, and that's why there's a great segueway... that's why you should work with me because I can do...
Kim: 00:48:30 That was gold.
Michelle: 00:48:31 Because that's what I help my clients do is figure out how to get from whatever they're charging now to what they need to charge to be profitable and more.
Michelle: 00:48:41 When you can confidently quote a price and know that you can deliver that value and your message is dialed in and your marketing approach is dialed in and your client ideal client is dialed in.
Michelle: 00:48:51 I'm, I'm, I book out two, three months in advance. I set a revenue goal for my business in January and for the first quarter and I achieved it in January. And that's not because I'm amazing. Although you've been telling me I am so okay.
Kim: 00:49:05 I think you're good.
Michelle: 00:49:06 Thank you. It's actually because my marketing message is dialed in and so that's what is available to all of us. I mean everybody that's listening to that, that's what's available to all of us. It's not something you can necessarily do by yourself. You need the objectivity. So if you had told, I know what I charge and if you had told me four years ago that I would charge this, my mind wasn't there yet. So I would have said no one will pay me to do that. No one will pay me to talk to them about marketing. They'll just pay me go. Right. But they won't pay me to like talk to them. This strategy's not a deliverable right?. It is though.
Kim: 00:49:46 It really is. And I mean that's more where, when you dial in the other work. It's like the strategy that is going to pay off more than the work. It just, it does. Right. There's two last things I wanted to talk about. If, if you're okay on time, um, and you're just getting, you've got a "brilliant from Jean, you got a "you are amazing from Steven". So, and again, everybody makes sure you have, you're getting tons of love over here to make sure you have subscribed go over to Michelle's site. Oh, get in her world. So, do we have a different link?
Michelle: 00:50:17 No. Well, yes, yes and no. So let me, um, there's a landing page of this not is live, but you can't get to it from the main Nav yet. The optin, I have a vendor working on adding the opt into my side, my side's kind of in the middle of an overhaul. If you go to michellehuntercreative.com/creating-profitability/, you'll get to a landing page. There's a guide about profitability that I wrote that um, is free. And when you do that, you'll opt in also to be on my list. So you can also unsub too if you hate me, that's okay. But you do have to opt in.
Kim: 00:50:51 Is that correct?
Michelle: 00:50:51 That's it. Um, yeah. So, so get that please. And um, is also being formatted. So right now it's not far, it's not beautifully branded or anything, but it's decent. So.
Kim: 00:51:05 Okay. Can I ask you the two little last things I wanted to touch on? Um, everyone's still here. We're getting tons of love. You guys are awesome. Thank you. Um, it's, it's fun. I can always gauge the quality of the guest, which I already knew you're awesome because we've had such great retention. So thanks guys and make sure you've shared this for me. If you can into your groups, your pages will be fantastic. Um, and of course if you're listening, make sure you go to Michelle Hunter, creative.com, forward slash creating dash profitability.
Kim: 00:51:33 Okay, last two things. One I would like to talk on where maybe, I don't know if you have a tangible resource or an exercise that someone can do to look at sort of the, I'm just going to use Russell's hook story offer kind of element. We didn't even get to touch on offers versus products today, but um, you know as an example.
Kim: 00:51:54 So I was saying, you know, I'm kind of doing it, I've got the one funnel away challenge cause I wanted to watch how they're doing it and I thought this was a great little exercise. Um, and I'm not trying to give away this thing, but they said to go to uh, like go to a fan, a business page of maybe a competitor or someone selling it and you can literally go to the left hand side column. There is info on ads and you can look at ads that they're running. And so you can look and just start studying and reading, oh, forget the image even for now. But what is the hook? What is that thing that's pulling you in? So maybe something tangible.
Michelle: 00:52:28 Here's the exercise. So, um, you need to learn to deconstruct marketing messages. And it's a wonderful (thank you for opting in). It's a wonderful game. You can play with yourself. I actually play it a lot with my husband until if like his eyes were all right
Kim: 00:52:44 Michelle, I don't want to talk marketing today.
Michelle: 00:52:46 Ask yourself what is the problem? Remember we talked about that conversation. So level one is the felt need. Level two is the problem level and you don't need to know the levels, but level three is the solution. And then four is the offer.
Michelle: 00:52:59 So if I've watched like a Mcdonald's commercial and they're saying, you know, whatever their jingle is, I don't know, but they're showing like two people and they're eating fries and I'm talking about how good they are and they're having some community and then, um, whatever their tagline is. So what are they actually selling there. Now, intellectually we'll say to ourselves, they're selling food. They're not though. What are they really selling? They're really selling casual relationship, smiles, feeling good. You know, just loving it. I think I sort of tagline. So are they, are you loving the food or are you loving the time with your friends?
Michelle: 00:53:34 If you look at the ad, what are they really selling? The solution is friendship. Let's just say, so then what is the problem? The problem is I feel lonely or I want to engage socially.
Michelle: 00:53:45 Okay, so what does that feel like? Just back it up. You see? So what is the problem? What is, what does a solution that they're selling? What was the problem and how does that feel?
Michelle: 00:53:56 And then you can start to see how the ad place, so in this little exercise, if they're selling friendship, the problem is loneliness maybe or boredom. And then the felt need is, you know, I feel Yucky. I'm sitting home, I'm bored, I got nothing to do. So then if you look at the ad, what are they showing, they're showing friends meeting up they're, showing the opposite of that, right? And they're showing the community and then the offer, the level four, they're saying have, have a big Mac. They're saying this is, they're actually not even leading usually with the big Mac, it's just there. And so what they're creating is an idea that if I eat a big Mac, I'm going to have community, right?
Michelle: 00:54:38 You can do that with every ad. And you can do with an ad for a home improvement store. You know, they're talking about paint color or what are they really selling here They'll sell, they're selling a feeling of pride in your new kitchen, or they're selling ambiance in your bedroom, right? You're going to maybe have a little more intimacy because you selected the right wall color. So I just play that with myself. I train yourself to look at the message and then reverse
Kim: 00:55:03 And my guess is you do that really quickly now, right? This is the type of stuff that I, I, I just, I dunno, there's something about sort of mastery of this whole space that it's become a little bit of an obsession for me that I'm really enjoying getting better at these little things. You guys, so just do the work and have fun with it. I don't think, um, no, it's, it's not easy at first. I remember the first time where someone had me doing something like that or writing headlines is my least favorite thing to do, but it was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get better at doing this. So, okay. And then they'll go ahead.
Michelle: 00:55:34 Second exercise, it might be easier is that the marketing conversation exercise. So I also do this with my husband until he wants to die.
Michelle: 00:55:41 Which is to ask really? How does that feel? So if he says to me, Hey, can you get me a soda? I say, really? Why? He's like, because I'm thirsty. Really? How does that feel? Well it feels like my mouth is really tired, dry and besides which you're annoying me. Okay, cool.
Michelle: 00:55:57 So like get used to trying to ask people to go deeper and then when someone emails you into your business has, hey that blog post she wrote really resonated with me. Email them back and go, why? I'm just, I'm just curious. Can you tell me a little more why? How were you feeling about that? Okay. It's a little creepy but you'll get used to it and people actually are really excited to be asked and that's going to give you good intel about how that marketing conversation is landing. Does that make sense?
Kim: 00:56:29 That was brilliant. That was great. Um, the last thing I want to touch on and then I will let you have your afternoon. Okay. Is Story, right? Like it's taken me a while to get to this story piece of... i, It's really stories that sell when they connect. And, and I don't know if you have a suggestion because a lot of times this is where I, you know, my, my hashtag everything is content and, and, and I think it's contextual. I'm kind of pivoting cause I do think everything is content, but you need to know how to take something and make it a story and where you're heading with it and it's just practice, right? But where would you tell somebody to start? Maybe if they are thinking, I don't know where to start with a story. I don't know what to touch on because the best example that I give, and I'm sorry you guys if you've heard this before, is I look at even big media companies that are doing this now.
Kim: 00:57:16 One of my favorites was a commercial a couple summers ago. I was actually on Facebook. It was an ad and it was when Spiderman Homecoming was coming out and Peter Parker was taking his driver's test and the car he borrowed from his friend Tony Stark, it was a beautiful Audi. And it was like, of course. So they're doing this little mini movie and he has to like pull over and save the world really quick before the DMV guy notices. And I was like, this is a great story. I already loved Audi and Marvel to begin with, but it was like I loved it. Right. So I see where that's going. Any tips or suggestions or advice on starting to step into using stories in our marketing effectively?
Speaker 4: 00:57:50 Yes. Number one, do not overthink it and keep it really, really simple. So why is that apple story memorable for you and why did you ask me to share it? Because it's simple and we can all see ourselves in the story. Right? So, what makes a story engaging is that I can see myself in it. So I'm not sure about your Superman's story except that you all have sort of felt like we needed to do something without DMV noticing. Right?
Kim: 00:58:19 We've all been, we've all been behind the wheel of like, cause you see him nervous to like get the test. Right, right. I mean so that most of us as adults can relate to at some point.
Michelle: 00:58:30 So you need a, you need commonality or looking for commonality and you want to make that as simple as possible. Because honestly, I think we overthink storytelling. We think story telling, some really big hoochie thing.
Michelle: 00:58:43 But when you think about it like Grimms fairy tales, they were actually about teaching social skills to children. So if you think about the story of Hansel and Gretel, that was all about don't go with strangers. Like that's the whole point in that story. So if you go with strangers they are going to put you in the oven and eat you like, hello, wake up, don't go with strangers is danger, danger will Robinson.
Kim: 00:59:02 But that's, that's what you're looking for in a story is to make it really, really simple and almost absurd. But, um, something I can step into and, and, and feel, and that's the emotion piece. So always ask yourself like the flowery language doesn't matter. The details, keep it as simple in terms of details as possible. What really matters is the emotion. How does it feel to be in the story? And while my ideal client feel that way too, if they will... Now craft a story around that, like..
Kim: 00:59:36 it's rich sharing, right? That at the end of the day it's really just sharing with, I don't know, when I started doing the almost daily emails a while ago, I simply wanted to practice sharing something. And I always use the example of, I joke around that, you know, I could've convinced anybody to go see the Greatest Showman because I loved it so much and I was so frigging high on that movie. I must've seen it two or three times at theater. And I was like, I literally convinced a ton of people to go see it because of my emotion and sharing and, and recommending the movie, you know? And so it's, how would we share and talk, right? I mean, that's kind of, and then you get better at crafting and writing as you go. But I just, so any, and, go ahead.
Michelle: 01:00:16 I think if you, if you would tell a friend and a coffee shop, then you have the right tone. So you know, if I can't find , if I can't find a parking space and I'm really frustrated, I'm meeting you for coffee. We all tell stories all the time, so I'm going to show up and I'm going to go, you know what? I drove around for 10 minutes. I was looking for a parking space and then some idiot pulled in and took the one I found and I had to go around the block again. Has that ever happened to you and you're like, oh my gosh, yes, we just told the story, so why are we overthinking it? We connected around the frustration that's common to both of us. I didn't say, and there were birds singing and I knew I should have felt guilty because it's not raining today. Like I didn't add all that other who ha I just stuck with the point which is I'm frustrated. Here's why. Has that happened to you? Yup. Great. We do it all the time.
Kim: 01:01:03 That was awesome. So you got any, any other questions? I'm just like, because like I feel like I could have and I would love to, we'll get up maybe, you know in another month or something we'll get another live stream scheduled. And here's what would be super helpful you guys is if you have additional questions for Michelle. Um, Robert said go download the guide from Michelle It's really good. So I'm assuming it Michelle, I'm like this is the fastest anybody has like been like, okay, you guys do your live thing. I got to open another tab. So I'm definitely do that. I'm going to make sure to get the link back up here, but if you do have questions for Michelle, obviously you can go through her website, but ask them in the thread and just tag Michelle, make sure to tag her. She's in the group too so you can tag her inside of Content Creators. Um, Michelle, you're just a gem and, and thank you for, for coming back after.
Michelle: 01:01:56 Feel free to tag me. And also I want to say if you have a header on your website, you're struggling with it. Like I think it was his name. Eric, I think. Yeah. Or if you're like, I get what you're saying about marketing conversation, but I'm not sure. Put it in the group. Let's have a dialogue about it. I'm really good at candidly telling you, okay, that's enough free stuff. You need to hire me now. So don't feel like you're going to offend me. It, I'll, but I, I would love, I love to dish back and forth about this kind of stuff. So feel free to tag me with that and I'll hop in and comment and we can just rock with it.
Kim: 01:02:31 Uh, it actually, the other thing is if you guys, if you're waiting for a little nudge there, Michelle, feel free to start a thread. You're more than welcome to do that in the group. Um, and for doing that. And I will obviously drop the link in you guys. So this is a me saying, please do this and I'm going to drop the link in there. Um, stay tuned. I am going to get this repurpose this week. The podcast will be up and I was already thinking, Michelle, I'm like, I've got to get this transcribed. So, um, it's just, it's gold. I'm like, I got to pull this out. I made a ton of people saying it. You got another one on there we go. "Opted in, excited to read it". So, and I'm going to go ahead and I hate to use this language, but like I can't be too creative right now.
Kim: 01:03:10 Um, I'm going to pimp Michelle out too. So if you guys have shows or live streams, I clearly you see that she's a fantastic guest and I just, you know, I mean, she delivers massive value is you guys have seen it. So if you do have to get another one, if you do have a podcast or would like to feature, you can do written interviews too. By the way, if you don't have a podcast or you've got a youtube channel, um, but reach out, you clearly see that she delivers. So Michelle, thank you so much and thank you for putting up at the tech snafu everybody in the beginning,
Michelle: 01:03:44 Like I said, it just makes me feel like I'm not the only one, so thank you so much.
Kim: 01:03:49 Awesome. All right guys. Have a fantastic rest of your day. I'm going to let Michelle go. I'm going to go ahead and end the broadcast and look for this on the podcast this week. Talk to you soon guys. Thanks.
Kim: 01:04:02 Do you see what I mean? That was freaking amazing. So much gold. The feedback was outstanding. Not to mention, guys, I can always gauge how well a live stream is doing it based on the retention of the people watching at the time. So, so much gold. Like I said, getting this transcribed. Go to Michelle Hunter, creative.com and this episode is brought to you by the content creators, planner.com oh my God. The final samples have shipped. We are getting the first bulk order. They're going out super soon. I'm super excited. So anyways, as always, guys, thanks for listening. If you've not left a review in Itunes, it totally helps people find the podcast. Please do so as always. Have a fantastic day. I love you guys' tons. We'll catch you next time.

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Kim Doyal

Hi, I am Kim Doyal: Entrepreneur, Podcaster, ContentCreator, Optimist. Over 10 years into this online business journey, I believe that #EverythingIsContent and we can all #JustShowUP.

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