Trial, Error, and Lifestyle with Kyle Van Deusen FTH: 087

Thanks to Cloudways for sponsoring this episode!

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Where to Connect with Kyle Van Deusen

Website | Twitter | The Admin Bar

Listen to my previous episode with Kyle here: “Keeping it Real with Kyle Van Deusen KDS: 068”

Kim Doyal 0:00
Before we get into today’s episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor Cloudways. Cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind with 24/7 support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting and thanks to Cloudways they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners. Visit Cloudways.com and use a promo code KIM20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let’s get into today’s episode.

Kim Doyal 0:38
Welcome to F the hustle. I’m your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we’re going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don’t have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we’ll be talking about selling, charging what you’re worth, and how earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms.

Kim Doyal 1:21
Hey, What Up, What up?! Welcome to another episode of EFF the hustle with Kim Doyal because this is now the third iteration of my podcast. Kyle has been on with me with the WordPress Chick podcast, The Kim Doyal show. And I think I’m in my sweet spot at least for a few more years with FtheHUSTLE with Kim Doyal. So that being said, my guest is my good friend, Kyle Van Deusen. Kyle, thanks so much for being here today.

Kyle Van Deusen 1:45
I’m super excited to be here. And I’m just waiting for your next iteration so I can come back again.

Kim Doyal 1:50
Well, you’ll I’m sure you’ll come back before there is another iteration. At that point. I’m like, Girl, I got like for myself talking to myself girl stick with like, no more rebranding, let’s just, we’re dialed and we’re placing events in the background.

Kyle Van Deusen 2:05
We’re placing bets on the change of the name,

Kim Doyal 2:10
Or what course platform is gonna jump on next.

Kim Doyal 2:15
Anyway, um, alright, so let me I’m gonna kind of just do a little backstory with. I’m not I’m gonna link to previous episodes with Kyle, you guys can listen to who he is. And what he does, I’ll let him do a quick little bio, we’ve gotten much deeper into his business in previous episodes. But the reason I reached out to Kyle is that he responded to an email about time lotteries. And we’re going to talk about that in a minute. So this is going to be much more of a free flow conversation. We’re going to talk about thought management mindset, running your business in a way that works for you. And we’re gonna just see where it goes. So for those who have not listened, Kyle, or have had the good fortune of our previous conversations, give a little background.

Kyle Van Deusen 2:55
Yeah, my name is Kyle Van Deusen. As you can probably hear from my accent, I am from Texas. So forgive me for that. But I own a small agency here in Texas that I’ve had since 2017. About a year after I started that I started an online community called the admin bar for web developers, freelancers, agency owners, and that has grown tremendously over time, we’re at about 5000 members now. And at this point, my business that’s taken over kind of takes up most of my time at this point. So it was before the agency was full-time in the community was part-time. And now it’s the community is full time in the agencies getting a little bit more part-time. But yeah, as long as it has to do with the web, I’m usually in the middle of it.

Kim Doyal 3:37
Perfect. And he does have Kyle is a believer in email and newsletters as well. He’s got the Friday chaser, which is a great newsletter. And I will link to that you guys can opt into that. And it’s really based on the community. So if that is your sweet spot, make sure to jump into the community on Facebook, which I will link to as well. So let’s just jump into this and this is gonna be I feel like we’re doing like our own little Dr. Phil Oprah session here or something like who knows. But so the email that I was referring to you guys is I have this thing I call the time lottery and that is that every single time and appointments are canceled. I feel like I have won the time lottery. And the funny thing is, I love everybody I talk to I really do I don’t have calls or interviews. I just don’t have people in my life. I’ve worked very hard to get to this point. When my therapists say she’s like you’ve done a good job weeding your garden, and I have but yet, even though I like these people, I like the topics that call it feels like a time lottery every time something even social stuff you guys like and I always have a great time when I go but when social things get canceled. I’m like and let me just remind you, my life is me. And my dogs at this stage right like I’ve raised my kids I’m on my own. There’s no lot of demand for my time I live in another country. None of my family’s like, Hey, can you do this for me? So, anyways, I would love to hear Kyle, why that resonated with you, you email me back, but like, what about that spoke to you?

Kyle Van Deusen 5:13
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, we have so we put so much on our plate, and then we have constant demands on our time, right. So we have social media, sending us notifications, we have emails coming in, there’s like, nonstop endless, sometimes feels like a firehose shooting at us of like demands on our time. So, you know, I’ll look at my days and go, Okay, well, I got this meeting, I need to get these things done and those things down, and it’s like, Okay, I’m gonna do really well to even come close to getting all this accomplished. So it’s if one of those things falls off, it’s like, such relief that hey, now I can, you know, have a moment to breathe or like, maybe have lunch today. That would be cool. Because there’s, there are some days I forget to do that, you know. So even though like you said, it’s, I enjoy all the commitments, I wouldn’t put myself into commitments I didn’t enjoy at this point, I think that’s a luxury you and I both share, it’s like, thankfully, we’ve gotten to a place in our business where we don’t have to do all the things we wish we weren’t doing. But even still, then it’s really nice sometimes to just be able to take a second and breathe and go, Okay, well, all those things I had to do, I thought I had to do today, I can actually catch my breath for a moment. Now I usually end up just filling that with more stuff. I don’t think it I don’t think I ever just sit back and put my feet up or anything when that happens. But it does feel like you know, a big relief. I’m Imagine if it happened every day, it wouldn’t feel that way. But every now and then it’s like Christmas morning.

Kim Doyal 6:38
It is. And so it’s kind of a testament to the state of the world we live in, right. And I remember when I was pre-starting my business, and I was working full time raising my kids by myself, literally, it’d be like, you know, up to an alarm between five and six, get myself ready to get the kids ready, get them dropped off at school and daycare, go to work for the whole day, pick them up, then if there wasn’t a sports activity, it was like, Okay, let’s go to Costco. Do you guys want pizza and yogurt for dinner? Sweet. Let’s go to Costco, we got to get that done tonight. Right? And then I’d go home and I put them to bed and I’m like, I’m gonna shampoo the carpets. It’s like I arrived on being as absolutely productive, productive as I could. And the funny, because I got a lot of acknowledgment for that people, we’re like, how do you do that? And I’m like, it was kind of innate, right in my nature. And my therapist told me this before, like, especially specifically with women, men are much more wired externally, women are internally and she said, you know, you start hitting midlife. And women’s natural pace is medium to slow. And it’s a gift. Like I friggin love that I can nap that I can’t, I don’t set alarms, all of those things. And it’s an interesting transition. Also, when your business starts getting to that place where you’re like, I don’t have to take this call, I don’t have to take this client, I can say no to this, and you approach it a lot differently. And you know, and so I think there’s one I almost think it’s like a, I would say a newbie tax, but when you’re new, you don’t know what you don’t know. Right? And you there’s fear involved with if I say no to this, or if I say no to that, will the opportunity come up? And so I don’t know what are your thoughts on growing as a business owner and having you know, the time lottery means so much?

Kyle Van Deusen 8:21
Yeah, and it’s funny you brought up like the kid’s stuff too, I think if you have kids but you can’t relate this conversation quite to your business yet. Imagine when it starts to rain and the kid’s game or their practices called off that relief feeling that’s the same one, right? Like yes, I don’t have to go take them to that now. Yeah, so it’s weird in your business because especially as you start like, the last thing you’d want then is for things to not go through the right way or for you to not feel like you’re maximizing every minute of the day you know, because you’re in that hustle grow you know, all those kinds of things. So it’s a weird shift when you can afford those kinds of things. And I don’t mean just afford and like monetary value, I can afford to not do this today but like you just don’t have to push your business that hard in order to still be successful. And it wasn’t like something I knew was gonna happen and I was trying to strive to go towards but being able to like realize that now at this point it’s it is a huge relief even though it just brings different kinds of pressures right? Because you missed two or three of those things or several of those canceled meetings or whatever happened back to back and then you go back into that mindset of like is this you know, Will I ever go back to being busy again? Is this all over? Has the am I waking up from the dream I was having, you know, so I think that’s the roller coaster of being self-employed. And that doomsday scenario thing that always has to run through your mind

Kim Doyal 9:48
it does it what do you think about and again, maybe it’s experience and age that happens with it? But so I don’t know what I was reading I’m I read a ridiculous amount. This is probably why like, I can’t get through a book because at night, I put up my iPad. Next thing I wait, I’m waking up in the morning and I’m like, oh, it’s propped, I got two pages read, but is, you know, it’s kind of the more I trust myself and the easier I am and the more whitespace I fill in my life, though, there is just it flows it there’s, there’s something about, you know, when when you feel like and it’s not even the cancellations, but it’s about having that whitespace. So like, I was saying to people, so I got Omicron or whatever January. And it was such a delicious taste of whitespace because I just canceled everything for two weeks, I couldn’t write the second week, I was feeling way better. But it was like, by one o’clock, I get really tired. And I’m like, I gotta go to bed. And it was like, I shouldn’t care. I don’t care, right. So you sort of earn your way there. But I think the other piece is that a lot of what you were doing, as you were growing the admin bar, you were having fun, and you were like, I’m gonna try this. I’m gonna have fun. You showed up with integrity, you connected you created value. And it sort of took a life of its own on right. And so I think there’s a piece of I think people get into business. I feel like I’m all over the place. I’m probably too caffeinated today. But welcome to life with me, Kyle, conversation, his people get into business, and they expect it to be comfortable, or they expect it to not have to, to not struggle, but it’s sort of like they assume something’s wrong when things don’t work instead of being a part of the process. Right? And so as you grew The Admin Bar because you didn’t launch that right with, this is my end goal. Right? When you launched it, what was the intention?

Kyle Van Deusen 11:45
Yeah, so there, there was basically no monetary incentive I didn’t, I didn’t ever figure that was as part of my business. That wasn’t the idea. So I connected with another web developer named Matt, in a weird situation, but we hit it off. And we had very similar agencies. And we were kind of in the same place in our agency, right? fairly new, growing, getting our feet under us. And what we realized was the kind of the trajectory of our businesses both took off when we started talking more, and it wasn’t necessary, it wasn’t, it wasn’t necessarily coincidence, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that we had somebody else to bounce ideas off of learning from getting advice from hold each other accountable. Like all those things you need in your business, especially when you’re doing it completely solo that you don’t have, right. So the idea with launching the community was, well, if this worked for me, and you there’s probably 1000s of other people out here in that same situation that doesn’t have somebody, right. So I wonder if we could create a space where we could do this publicly, we could help people connect with each other and all that. So it was never, you know, some kind of business plan going into it right. And it just ended up being so much fun and working so well. And opportunities arose that made it part of my business. That, you know, it got to the point for me, where I was working a full-time job in the agency and working a full-time job in the admin bar. Right. So it was two full-time jobs and something had to give you know, so thankfully, I’ve, I’ve gotten to a place where financially, the admin bar can help support me where I can focus more time on it and build some whitespace into it. You know, I think I think that’s one of the hard things that when you’re starting, you might not realize is you work every second of the day, and you feel every second of the day because it takes that much to pay for whatever your lifestyle is, right. And as you get better at what you’re doing, or figure out what you’re doing or put the right systems in place. You can build more profit into your business and live that same lifestyle without working the same amount of time, effort, energy, all those things. So, you know, I think when you’re starting out, you might be thinking of like that profit margin part of it being like, Okay, well, then I’ll just keep working at the same pace and make twice as much, which is probably what I thought as well, too. But I think there’s so much more reward in the fact that okay, I could slow down a little bit and still have what I need and enjoy. You know, most of the minutes I live for say, right? Yeah, maybe not every moment that way, but most of them

Kim Doyal 14:23
Right. And you know what, it’s I still to this day, like I could see the beach from here- ask me the last time I went to the beach was probably like two weeks ago because it was the pool last Saturday. But it was funny because it took the power going out and I was thinking last weekend like I’ll get some Pool time in but I have a tendency and I have very few client things that I do anymore. It’s sort of on an if it comes and I want to work with the person, I’ll do it and now it’s writing its copy and email writing and stuff. And so it’s funny because like then I go into the weekends because I’m like, Oh no, buddy no I’m working. It’s how it feels. Right? Right. So there’s like this sort of, but I’m like, this is gonna cause massive burnout. So I really I’m trying to like, even to this day, reframe. I’m not going to work on the weekends if I do. Kudos, but I’m not working on the weekends, but it took the power going out for me to be like, well, I guess we’re going out of the bowl. Right. And by we, I mean, me and the dog, they go hang out, right. So, and I was down there. And then I went to a barbecue that afternoon when I was like, I felt phenomenal. Come Monday, right? Sunday, like I love Sundays, just to do whatever the hell I want. You know, but it’s, it’s there’s still this mindset sometimes. For me to go to, it’s called price Mart. It’s owned by Costco down here. And you literally could probably put Pricesmart in the back corner of Costco, but I’ll take it. And there’s a Walmart, it’s like an hour away, though. I keep thinking I should go and I should go at night. Like, get it done like that way I don’t. Because I don’t want to take a day. Right to go. Because it’s a kind of a trek. Mind you. You don’t want to see the roads at night here they can I literally have to drive to like a little river. Right? I should do that. Although it’s probably dry at this point in the season. But the whole thing is there’s it’s really still, I think there’s a fluidity that you have to allow for yourself to get in the mindset of what do I want my life to look like? And how would I want to feel about this? And like, anytime I work with a coaching client, or like I’m working on a project, here’s an example this might help us pivot to the mindset piece is like I was gonna launch community, I was talking about it, I worked the coach for six months, I really dove deep into sort of the success journey of people and I think my audience tends to be their service providers, they’ve got a business, they understand the digital marketing space, but they’re stuck in the leverage piece, right? And now that I’m doing email marketing, it’s like, how do I do that for this? Because I have clients and so but they’re really looking for that leverage piece. And so, you know, I think there is I totally lost my train of thought mid-sentence. What was I saying? Initially, what were we talking about? For the love of God?

Kyle Van Deusen 17:10
You were transitioning into the mindset part of this conversation? After talking about taking some time away, and kind of forcing yourself into time off,

Kim Doyal 17:21
Kyle’s all “God, are you sure you’re healed from COVID?”

Kyle Van Deusen 17:25
It’s alright, I know the brain fog.

Kim Doyal 17:29
Thank you, you know, but so it’s just sort of that like, reframing how I think about things and so like, I have this exercise, I don’t know if you’ve ever read it. I don’t know. I think I’ve done a podcast, but it’s the “what-if” exercise. And I literally did two full pages in a journal one time I’m like, what if right? And the whole thing is they have to be what if? Up statements? So what if I could earn more and work less? What if I only had projects that got me excited? What if I could learn email marketing, and automate some sales? What if right, so I as I start doing this, because it’s like, well, what if, like, I won’t go super sideways with esoteric thoughts here. But January, I was sick, I was out for a couple of weeks at a friend here, I still brought in $11,000 that had nothing to do with my efforts at all. And you’re one had to write six of that had nothing to do with business or time at all. It was they were like gifts. I’m not kidding you. It’s nutty. And then one was a podcast sponsorship. And I’m like, sweet, so Right. And when I stay, I know this is a little bit more like my belief system and whatnot. But I gave myself the grace to spend time with my friend who was here, I gave myself the space to heal. I didn’t stress over it. And there was so much clarity that happened. And I think people miss that. And so there is a mindset reframe that has to happen because the other piece of this so this is sort of a two-fold, Kyle, but you’re younger, so you’re gonna follow me. I know it is. You see people with online businesses, and I think there is this level of they understand enough to talk about it and sell it, but they don’t understand the deep strategy behind some of it. And that’s where I feel like a hamster wheel starts happening. You know, so, as an example, there’s somebody I know down here who has like a podcast production company, and we’re selling that but oh, we’re gonna sell SEO and then outsource up we’re gonna sell this and oh, yeah, I could do Google YouTube ads. I’m like, the hell you can. Like, you don’t just decide to watch a YouTube video on how to do YouTube ads. And that is so out of integrity. It’s your spending someone else’s money is how I look at that. But be there is deeper work involved. And when you get rid of all of the extraneous, I got to learn this, and I got into this. And I can talk about this because the layperson who’s got an offline business, let’s say or, you know, I don’t know, a food truck, right? They’re running their business. They’re trusting you As the expert to be able to do the good work and so there’s a fear my point back to the mindset of that’s a fear mentality, I have to be able to sell and make money instead of if you take the time to go deeper, if you take the time to do better work, if you take the time to sit and look at how do I want my life to look like that’s I was talking about the community. Remember full circle, I was gonna launch a community,

Kyle Van Deusen 20:24
You knew what you were doing the whole time.

Kim Doyal 20:28
I meant to do that I meant to do that. It’s never steward meant to me, I meant to do that anyway. So but I was I had been working on that for months. And the thought of it, Kyle was like, this is not gonna fit into my lifestyle, I don’t have this is not the bandwidth I want. And so I pivoted to, I’m going to go all-in and upscale email insiders. I ran cohorts. I’m like, I like the smaller engagement. And it was a belief system that a community had to take up that much time because it’s up to how you structure it. But be it was just like, I don’t want to be on-demand. I feel like I’ve been on demand for a lot of my life. And I don’t want to be so I think there’s just a lot of reframing and belief systems and thoughts that go into it. So I would just love for you to run with anything. I just said If you could follow it?

Kyle Van Deusen 21:18
Well, I’ll say two things came to mind for sure. So one is, you know, you needed the power to go out to take that moment to take some time off, right. I think one thing that I’ve been super lucky is, you know, I work from home, and my wife has, she has her own business. So she shouldn’t work from home. But she does sometimes, you know, she’s home a lot. And we have a three-year-old, we have two other kids. So if it were just me left to my own devices, I would probably sit behind this computer, like 24 hours a day, and just work you know. So I have the accountability built-in of like the family would drag me out and wring my neck if I didn’t come out of this office and have some time away from work. So that’s super helpful. For me, that’s kind of like my power going off, right, which probably isn’t too far from them actually coming in here and turning the power off. But the only thing that you brought up on the mindset part is, you know, I’ve, like most people who do work online, you try a bunch of different things, right? You try doing SEO and YouTube ads, or whatever it may be whatever you think might get you, you know, to that next level, that next step. And I think about all the things that I’ve tried that never turned out the way I wanted to. And it was I was trying to think of a single case where this wasn’t true. But it was always where I was like, okay, I can go do this to make the money I need or there’s probably a lot of money in x, right. But then I think about the things that have actually turned out successful and really ended up making me the most money. It was like, man, there’s a real problem here. I wonder how I could help solve this problem, right. And then you work through what all those solutions might be. And eventually, it turns into something that’s actually a big part of your business. So for, you know, you like to talk about email, obviously. So I’m not like a newsletter person, I think email is awesome. I’m not trying to build a huge list or anything like that. But inside of our community, there are 25 to 30 posts per day. And then there’s, you know, 20 to 30 comments per post, there’s a lot of content being generated in there. And unfortunately, we’ve built our community inside of Facebook, which a lot of people are running away from or trying to spend less time on at least right. So one of the complaints people had in the community was, there’s so much good here that and I can’t spend all day on Facebook, I’m missing stuff that I wish I wasn’t missing. So I looked at this, okay, how do I solve this problem is, these people want this information, but they don’t want to be on Facebook all day, they also don’t need to see all the, you know, not junk posts, but like, hey, I need help with connecting x with y, they probably don’t care about that. But there is good content people are sharing in there all the time. So it’s like, you know, what, if I did a recap every week have like the best posts from the group and send it out as a newsletter to everybody. That way, they don’t have to be glued to Facebook. But they can, you know, get it all delivered to them. They can go through what they want, they’d have liked a little recap of each post, like, why this would be important to read. And then they can choose what they want. And it was a success from day one in the terms that it solved that problem now because it solved that problem because people enjoyed it. Well then, you know, it grew to a little bit more and a little bit more than I had people asking, Hey, can you share my XYZ plugin? Can you do this? Can you do that? And I’m like, bingo, I could sell these spots because there’s obviously a demand for it right? So I started selling sponsorship spots in it so I’m not charging money for it. I couldn’t live off my newsletter. You know, it might bring in $5,000 over the course of a year, which isn’t insignificant but it’s obviously not something I can live off of. But it’s literally

Kim Doyal 24:48
Like a one time five grand right so after

Kyle Van Deusen 24:51
Yeah, but it’s it’s literally me being paid for something I would have done regardless of whether I was getting paid or not. I was gonna send out this newsletter because There’s a huge benefit to the community, I’m really getting paid in, this is satisfying a problem inside my community, but then to actually get paid for it as well feels like a huge bonus, you know. So I think, because I went into that in a way that was just me looking to solve a problem, it ended up being a whole lot better. Another example of that is, you know, you talked about starting a community. So one thing that’s been great inside the admin bar is us helping each other out share ideas, all that kind of stuff, but it is 5000 people in a room talking. So it’s not a very intimate situation. It’s not like you have people that are there to follow up on things with you. And that accountability, part of it is so huge if you want to grow, you know, so I kicked around this idea of starting, essentially mastermind groups, although I find that term kind of gross, so we don’t call it that. But it’s small groups of eight agency owners, we meet weekly, we do some accountability exercises. Throughout the week, we do some like monthly get-togethers with all the different groups. And this and that. And that was really, again, to solve a problem that we had in the community is, you know, there are lots of ideas, but there’s no like through-line, through all this advice, there’s no storyline to connect everything. There’s nobody there to hold you accountable and make sure you do it. We read 500 books, and then we implement nothing. So this helps kind of problem. And as I put those together, and obviously put a price on it. Now I have five of those groups running. And that accounts for the biggest chunk of income I have in my business. And again, it wasn’t like, How can I sell something to make the most money in my business? And where it was literally how do I solve this problem? And then the money showed up after that, you know, it made itself apparent.

Kim Doyal 26:44
Do you know what that is? Exactly that is verbatim almost what has happened to me, it’s when I do I’ve done something when I launched my podcast was 2013 is when I started that it blew up. And I only did it because I mean, I was like literally the cassette tape, book person in the car. And it was all Napoleon Hill and motivational all that kind of stuff, right. But so I love audio. And so I was a podcast listener. And I’m like, I’m tired of being behind the screen so much. And I’m like, I want to do a podcast and like, I like video, I don’t want to have to get ready all the time. And women are just going to be different about that. So I was like, I’m going to do a podcast that blew up my business, relationships, connections, people reached out to me for coaching, because they connected with me through listening to me. And I was like, that was really crazy. The same thing happened with email marketing, and even the content creators planner, email marketing, I was like, I’m going to figure this out, I let go of how it was gonna work. But I’m like, I’m gonna commit to my daily emails. And it was like, from there, it’s just been this evolution, this process every single time I thought I’m going to put an offer out because it makes money. It doesn’t. It doesn’t. And that doesn’t mean like, I’m at a point. Now I think in my business, and I have enough of a relationship with my audience, that I can send an email and make money. But they have to be in alignment. Right? The integrity has to be there with what I’m doing what I’m offering, it solves a problem for them, you know. And so to your point, like, you know, I really think it is, it’s hard though, to tell some, it’s not hard to tell someone, it’s hard to hear. What do you love doing? Go have fun. You need, they’ve got bills to pay, right. And so there is this idea of like, I have a friend that has kind of like, she’s talked about an agency before and she just had a ton of referrals coming in. And now she’s got a project manager and this at the same time, she’s always wanted may be affiliate sites running or a course or something, you know, and she’s been doing this a long time. And I’m like, what if you reframe it and what if the agency, for now, is just cash flow? Right? Because you can’t do anything well are creative with the money monkey on your back. I just don’t think it’s rare to find the person who has money is tight or money as a struggle or money is a challenge that can really show up. And trust. It’s a real process, right? There’s a whole lot of thought management that has to go into that. So what are your thoughts on that in terms of can you do something to make the money while just saying I’m going to go have fun? This feels right. I’m being called to do this, like eff the hustle. I came up with that name in 2015 I just didn’t I just didn’t like it because I was sick of it right? Right. And I was like whatever didn’t do anything with it newsletter started making a comeback. I have slowly just fallen in love with writing. I never thought I would be teaching email. I’m not probably ever gonna teach copy, but I feel really good that I can do it. And it was just one of those. I’m like, Oh my God, it was I logged into Dropbox, an old file and I saw the FtheHUSTLE logo, oh my God, that’s the newsletter. Like was just it was like this divine moment. I’m like, done, done, and it resonates with a lot of people. And so It also came from that place, right? And so when I launched email insiders last year, Kyle, it was an idea. I’m like, I want it. Where do people struggle? I put an email out. I said, 10 people, two months, boom, out, sold it. It was the easiest thing I’ve ever sold in my entire life. Because I believe in this and really want to connect with people. So, you know, what are your thoughts or advice anything on somebody who says that’s great, but I don’t know what I love, or I don’t have a passion, and I have to pay the bills?

Kyle Van Deusen 30:30
Yeah. So I will say, I think both of us are speaking from like, a place of privilege that we’ve been able to do these things, because that money monkey wasn’t on our back. So I realized that’s not the case for everybody out there. And that certainly wasn’t the case for me this whole time, either. It’s been you know, you get to that point, you know, so I don’t want anybody to think that that just happens for some people and doesn’t further. Yeah, so my, my, you know, I, I’ve always enjoyed my agency work, I still enjoy my agency work. Sometimes clients are challenging, sometimes doing client work is kind of hard, you know. And I’ve realized that more over time that while I like building websites, and I like talking shop, and all these things that have to do with web, I don’t absolutely just love helping clients, like, I like to help people I like when they succeed, I can do these things, I get paid nicely for it, but it’s not, you know, if I won the lottery, I wouldn’t be signing up new clients, right? So, you know, for me with with the admin bar, it was always, when it started, it was just like, Okay, let me finish up all my agency work. So I can go do some stuff in here. For fun, you know, so it was really the agency funded all the growth of that, because while we weren’t putting money into it, we were putting tons of time into it, which is a more finite resource than the money is. So for me, it was like, you know, what, what makes you excited to work on things? What sounds like fun, but what would you do? Even if, you know, if, if all the money was taken care of, if you won the lottery, what would you wake up? And do you know, and I’ve, I’ve wrote about that as well in our newsletter, like, what would you do if you won the lottery? Because I don’t think many people would lay by the beach every day forever. Like, that gets old pretty quick. You have to have some kind of like, purpose and things, you know, keeping you moving. So we’d like

Kim Doyal 32:19
To fill you, right?

Kyle Van Deusen 32:21
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s how I would look at it. Now. You know, that wasn’t immediately clear to me. And it wasn’t the admin bar that wasn’t like the answer of me asking that question to myself. Just like a, you know, you found in Dropbox, the F the hustle logo and realized, oh, okay, all these things go together. Now, it makes sense. That’s how it happened with the admin bar to for me, was just like, okay. The story kind of told itself, eventually, I just had to keep digging into it. You know, I think that that’s probably a huge part of it. And just, you know, you talked about being able to send offers out, and I think, I think back to offers I’ve made that have been total busts, or failures, or embarrassing, and it was kind of that same thing. Like, I felt gross about sending this offer out, I didn’t feel completely comfortable in it, but I needed to make the money off of it. So I did it anyway, you know, and, man, that is such an awful feeling like hitting send when you know, like, this feels kind of gross, this feels a little icky. You know, I don’t feel really strong about this. And man, can people tell immediately, you might as well just write in the email, this is a total scam. Because they know immediately when they start reading it. And I think, you know, that’s something

Kim Doyal 33:37
I need to pay my bills buy for me.

Kyle Van Deusen 33:40
Right, right. It’s the end of the month. Yeah, I think you know, so that’s something that’s always inspired me following you from back in the word, the WordPress chick days through now, you know, through different things. And I’ve always followed along as it’s, it’s always authentic, it’s always transparent. You know, you say, you’re not gonna teach copywriting but you’ve become such a fantastic writer, because you’re just saying the things like you think I’m you know, and that’s how I approach things, too, is just, you know, being real with everything makes things a lot easier for people to understand people to want to hold on to or be a part of, you know, if you’re just authentic about it, warts, all those things, you know, so finding something like that for yourself is, I think, a really good starting place.

Kim Doyal 34:30
That is brilliant, Kyle. And I think like, one of the takeaways I heard from that is, I live by this and it’s you get clarity by doing the work. And you know, like, so, just showing up to the admin bar or saying, I’m gonna podcast cuz I wanna have some fun and, or I want to, I’m gonna write for me, whatever happens, is going to happen. And so you’re not going to get good at writing without writing, to get good at websites that building websites. And I just went I wish I could tell people to just frickin take a deep breath and relax, right relax about stuff. Because we have so much information coming at us at the same time. There are a lot of beliefs and perceptions from people who haven’t actually tried the thing. So here’s an example. I could say, you know, stuff that makes you feel icky. And, you know, the example I love to give is Russell Brunson. People love him or hate him, whatever. But I’m like, he knows what he’s doing. He’s built a $100 million a year business. He loves marketing. He loves doing that. And so for me, like with coffee, it was not easy. Not just to do the work, because a lot of times you can write a sentence or you write a headline, what does that mean? What’s the result? What’s it? And it’s such an annoying question to have thrown back at you when you’re like, but I’m clear. It’s like, No, you’re not. And so, but But I look at him. And I think, okay, I don’t have to like every strategy, or every model or whatever. But there’s something here. And so it was it literally when I decided it was not that long ago to go to really pivot email marketing, as because I bought Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich. And if you don’t know him, that sounds smarmy, it’s literally a finance book, you guys, that’s, that’s what he talks about being smart with the right banks and interest and in like, it’s not anyways. But he calls out big banks and stuff too, which I love. But he has a digital marketing company, and they’ve got products. And so I bought his breakthrough launch product because I was tired of Product Launch Formula by Jeff Walker, he’s, uh, I don’t know, personally seems like a good guy. There’s nothing wrong with it. But when you’re in this space, it’s like, Oh, my God, here comes a product launch. Here comes a product launch kind of thing, right? And it’s it again, for people. Not everybody’s got the same awareness level. And I understand that. But so I’m on roommates List and List and they had emailed asking about launches. And I responded back, I’m like, I think it’s tired. I think the internet marketing launch of this is tired. And again, it’s probably not tired of people in you know, the hairdressing industry who are trying to sell products or right, but in our space, it feels hard. We’re hyper-aware. So. Right, exactly. And so I responded, I’m like, I think it’s tired. And so we went back and forth, right for a little bit. And they said, Hey, would you want to go through a Google Doc, that’s the first module of something we’re working on. I was like, absolutely. And I don’t know, if I fell out, they sent me another one, I kind of fell off. But then I didn’t see breakthrough launch come out for like a year. I was like, I know how long these guys have been working on this. This is amazing. And so I bought it like at an entry-level, and it was still probably over $2,000. And I know it wasn’t going to touch it for like a year. But I’m like, I’m going to get this now the price will go up. And it was I just diligently. We all buy courses we touch and don’t touch whatever. But I all of the emails, and it was his video explaining the psychology behind why this message speaks to somebody why this type of a hook or why this you know, and I thought, Oh, this feels really different than just trying to write words that get people to buy, right because you’re connecting with your buyer on a different level. And I was like, okay, wasn’t huge, but I’m like eight emails, seven grand, I will do that all day long, right? And I was like, Oh my God, but I cannot begin to tell you how uncomfortable I was on the car closing today. Today’s last day in the morning, five o’clock cart closes eight o’clock, you’ve got three hours. And it wasn’t that direct. And it the whole process really built on it narrows trust and you know, the whole thing. But I just thought oh my god, as we get in our own way because we decide something is bro marketing, like coming back to Russell Brunson. You don’t have to buy his stuff. You don’t have to want to touch Click Funnels. But if you pay attention, he knows what he’s doing. You know, it’s kind of like, Ben settle. I’ve talked about him a lot. He’s gonna rub a lot of people the wrong way. We have very different political beliefs. He’s a little bit. I’m not gonna call him out, because I think he’s a smart writer and stuff. But there’s a lot of things he says where I’m like, oh, like I feel icky. But he’s built a very successful business with email and email players and daily emails. And so we get in our own way, based on what we’re thinking, we’ve got a belief about something and we get too many people to look for reasons to be offended. So that’s one, but two, is there something I feel like I just talked to you pal and sorry for like 10 minutes but is there you know, and listening to all of this, the thought management has you seen maybe growth for yourself where you wouldn’t have done something before and it was learning a process of trying it and testing it? I just want people to get comfortable with the discomfort while you’re growing.

Kyle Van Deusen 39:51
You nailed this. I wrote something down when you started talking that I wanted to get to and you circled right back to it and teed it up for me, but it starts with a question For you, do you feel like you’re you would describe yourself as like a perfectionist, somebody that feels like they have to get everything right.

Kim Doyal 40:07
No,

Kyle Van Deusen 40:08
I don’t either, right. So I realize everything I do is going to be flawed. That’s fine. I really like

Kim Doyal 40:14
I “fire and aim.” I totally fire and aim. And then I’m very public about that didn’t work.

Kyle Van Deusen 40:19
Absolutely. And I think that in, in the kind of business you run the kind of business I run, I think that is such an advantageous, like mindset to have is because you’re not like, I don’t want to fail. Like when I try something new, I don’t want it to fail. But if it does, I’m kind of like, well, I’ll probably learn something from that this might not work, but I’m gonna try it anyways because everything is content. Yeah, everything is content. Right. And I say that to myself quite a bit, too. But so that doesn’t bother me. But I do see so many people that feel like, okay, well, you know, I can’t even start sending out this newsletter until I have the right opt-in form, and then the right, you know, initial sequence, and well, the email is not designed correctly. And I don’t know how I’m going to tag people in here. And it’s like, Oh, my God, just make a decision and do something like just put something out there, and then figure all that stuff out, like you said, fire aim, you know, just go out there and try it. And if you can plan something to death, you could plan something for six years. And then as soon as rubber hits the road, it’s all going out the window anyways, everything’s gonna change.

Kim Doyal 41:27
Oh, were you in the live stream I did one time? I’m sorry, where my son came in, I’m doing a live stream, the gardener wanted payment. And I’m like, I want a call. And he takes a washcloth and he throws it over the camera. And I’m all Oh, my God, this is. but shit happens, right? best laid plans. And I taped signs on the door. Right? But like best-laid plans? I’m sorry, go ahead.

Kyle Van Deusen 41:54
No, I did I miss that. But that’s a fear that will happen to me. My office is like right in front of the house. So when the kids come in and out, they’re walking right by me constantly. So I’m always afraid I’m going to have that situation happen, but hasn’t happened yet. Knock on wood. But yeah, I think, you know, I try to remind myself, even if I am scared of like this, not this thing not working out. It’s like, what is the worst thing that can happen? Like, if somebody’s going to start a thread somewhere that makes fun of me for this not working? That’s not really that bad. You know, like, what is literally the worst thing that can happen. And none of those scenarios are that bad. And, you know, after you do this a few times, you realize, no, obviously, you don’t want to have no plans at all. But no matter how many plans you planning, you do, things gonna change, your direction is going to change, your strategy is going to change all that. So you might as well start collecting that data and figuring those things out as soon as possible. And the only way to do that is to like not to be afraid to fail, go out and try it. And you’ll learn way more that way than you will be listening to anybody talking about it, reading books, joining courses, all that, that life experience, part of it is just it’s such a better teacher, you know,

Kim Doyal 43:04
It is. And you know, it’s funny, because it’s like, I’ve gotten to a point, I think when I was talking about the newbie tax earlier, I think we buy products and courses and all those things, as we’re trying to get clear, and we’re trying to figure it out. So if you’re in that stage, let go of the judgment, I think we’ve all done it, we all do it. And as you get better, and as you do better work. And as you figure stuff out, you feel like you don’t have time for like, I just made a huge investment in my business. And, and I’ll talk more about it later, but I’m ready. Like I have gotten so crystal clear. And I do the work. So I’m not worried about it. And I know where I’m going, but it wasn’t an “I’m gonna go try. Maybe I should get into Instagram marketing”, whatever. It’s all it’s it’s super, super focused and stuff. One thing I wanted to ask you is Do you do anything? Or do you have things that are a part of your life and your lifestyle that help you manage your thoughts or, and I can give you examples, but you know like I found Joe Dispenza and I love him and it to me if you know his story?

Kyle Van Deusen 43:45
I don’t.

Kim Doyal 43:47
I’ll be really quick Dr. Joe Dispenza. He’s a big, huge author, speaker, whatever. He was a chiropractor in La Jolla, California, and was out biking one day, and got hit by a truck got hit. And he was in traction and hospital and they wanted to do surgery on his back. And they said, but you may never walk in, there’s a 5050 chance he said I’m going to heal myself. And he said, you know, he’s laying there and he said it took him about four weeks to get his mind, right. And he said, If I can do this, I’m going to commit the rest of my life to understand you know, neurology and how the body works and then the power of the mind of the brain. And he laid there. I mean, he’s fascinating to listen to, you can just Google interviews, Lewis Howes has had him on a couple of times. And so he literally pictured over and over and over As a chiropractor, he knew exactly what a spine should have looked like and whatnot. And to this day, he’s healthy. He walked out of the hospital. And so like it gives me goosebumps, right? And that’s a real short story. But when you look at the fact that our minds control so much of how we feel about things, and I catch myself, and I joke, you guys, my friends call me. What About Bob? Have you seen that movie?

Kyle Van Deusen 45:45
Mm hmm.

Kim Doyal. 45:47
All right. I’m all Oh, yeah, I’m like, Bob has nothing on me. Like my therapist has property down in Costa Rica, right. So now I get to hang out with her and stuff. And so she’s retired. She’s kind of like a mentor now. But I’m constantly coming back to manage my thoughts, manage my thoughts. And I’ll catch myself thinking something and I’m like, this isn’t serving you. This isn’t serving you, you know. And a little example, like Thanksgiving, I was down here was the first time ever I’ve been away from family on any family. And it was also my mom’s birthday, she passed away two and a half years ago. And I was so sad. And I was like, I’m just gonna feel the feelings. I’m just gonna cry. I’m gonna climb in bed. And like, we did a video, right from my mom’s service. And it was like, I almost went and watched it. I’m like, Kim, what are you doing? You’re literally pouring salt on one. Just be here. Don’t look for stories to explain. Well, you better leave Costa Rica. And you better do that. Right? I was like, I was so conscious of not letting myself go down this hole. So like, I read, meditate, new step. But I’m wondering, are you coming from that conscious place? Is there anything you do in your life that helps you kind of keep your mindset, right, men and women are very different? So I’m really curious.

Kyle Van Deusen 46:39
So it’s funny, I think me and you are similar in a lot of ways, probably because I follow you around and then emulate you. So take that as a compliment for anything good. I’ve done and thank you for any of the bad things I’ve done. But this one, I would say completely different. I have almost no introspection at all. I don’t overthink anything. I don’t, you know, connect dots where dots shouldn’t be connected. It’s just not in my personality. I’m very, I don’t know, fact-based get to the point, you know, but I will say it, it helps that I’m married to a therapist. So then, then, then I realize is, you know, I have one of those built-in, like at home. I, you know, I can vouch for the importance of that for sure. But yeah, I’m, I’m just not an I’m not an over-thinker. I’m not a draw conclusions type person. So I think that’s just probably more my personality than anything.

Kim Doyal 47:40
To tell you a joke, and then I’ve been to the point, I sent this actually to my therapist, and it was one of those, like, tweet thread kind of thing that it said, you know, and it’s me. What if the therapist says, Don’t. Me, but what if? The therapist says nothing? Me, What if everyone else is underthinking? What about what about that? Right?

Kyle Van Deusen 48:03
I’m definitely underthinking so. But I will say, I do appreciate how much you’ve been open about therapy and stuff because there’s so much stigma in the mental health industry. So it’s awesome. See, when people are willing to talk about those things because it helps everyone. So soapbox moment,

Kim Doyal 48:18
Well, and can I tell you things like I found my therapist when I lost my husband at 32 car accident, right? I went in, and I don’t have any recollection of this, but I trust her. But I went in there and I was like, Alright, I’m just here for grief counseling. I’m not any. I’m not doing any of that therapy, childhood shit. Like, I was like, really, really. But I have always there’s something fascinating to me about, oh, I can think a different thought. And I can change the trajectory of my life. Or so it’s kind of like, and that was the magic. Like I love. I do love connecting dots. And so when I realized, alright, so I can change this sentence, and I can make more money. Like that’s where copy became fun, right? It became not laborious, really, from that perspective. Because really, Kyle, I was much more like you. Pardon me?

Kyle Van Deusen 49:07
Yeah. I said their therapists are magicians in some ways like that. Just being able to make you think about something a little bit differently, that changes everything, like just the perspective you’re looking at something changes everything. Yeah, it’s sometimes easier to be like, you don’t think anything, overthink anything. But obviously, that comes with its flaws, too, because I often don’t plan things out well enough. Or imagine further, far enough down the road, you know, so there are drawbacks to that as well.

Kim Doyal 49:37
It is, I think, to your point, like innate personalities, right like this, it would, it’s rare that I everything I listened to on audio is like I bought a real spiritual side, not religious, but very spiritual side or business. Like I’m constantly putting that stuff in my head. It just feels me, you know, and at the same time, like meditation, where I’ve gotten much more patients As I’ve gotten older, but it’s not a strong suit, but I know that if I take five to 10 minutes and start my day with a meditation, it keeps me from being reactive. And the other the magic of for me of doing this work, because I finally hit a point in my life where I feel like I don’t have to fix myself, you know, like, I am very reactive. And people may don’t see it, because I don’t respond from that place. But I go zero to 60 on my head with plenty of shit, right? And it’s like, Ben, the differences now I’m like, oh, that’s part of my process. I’m going to be pissy I’m gonna bitch, I’m going to be like, Who can I talk to about this thing. And then three days later, and now it’s gotten to the point where I’m like, it’s like, two hours later, like, Okay, you’re totally wasting your time. And a friend and I, it was an exercise for my therapist, and like, now we go, Alright, hold on, I need to go to drama class. And we just run and get stupid and dramatic and the world is ending, and I’m horrible. And I’m dying, or whatever it is. And it’s like, a year and a half like this, this is fine. It’s just

Kyle Van Deusen 50:55
It’s funny, my, my, my middle daughter, she’s she, anytime you correct her on something. So like, she makes a bad grade or doesn’t do something she’s supposed to, just automatically goes in. So what you’re saying is you hate me, what you’re saying is I know, that’s just her dramatic reaction. But it’s, it’s funny. Now you can just predict, like, this is how it’s gonna go. And then five minutes later, you know, she just has to go through that in order to get it out of her system. And then five minutes later, she’s fine. And we’re okay. But yeah, it’s just, it’s funny, everybody has a process, but you might not recognize your own process, you know, without somebody holding a mirror up to you, you know?

Kim Doyal 51:35
Absolutely. And, you know, when you think about where we are today, and I won’t go sideways with social media, and like, because my heart hurts for kids today, it really does with social, it’s like, I can’t imagine being able to compare myself to people 24/7 When you’re in that insecure, you know, preteen teenager, and even early 20s, and I just got kind of lucky, both my kids are 21 and 24. Now, and, man, you know, they kind of don’t bother with it. It’s just not their forte. But it’s, it’s tough. And so then even as business owners, because you do see, you know, it’s that picture of the iceberg, that there’s like this little iceberg above the water, and then there’s all this work below it. And so I don’t know, any thoughts on helping, you know, somebody reframes that or think differently about it, you know, which is why I’m very passionate about sharing the shit show, too. I really, really am very, I believe in that wholeheartedly. I tend not to share it when I’m in it. Because I don’t think it doesn’t serve me, therefore I don’t think it’s going to be helpful to other people. But you know, it’s such a journey, and its fluid in life has ups and downs. And it’s hard. So I don’t know, what are your thoughts for people out there in a business where they find themselves stuck? Or maybe they’re waiting for that? I haven’t found my niche. Can I say March is 14 years? And I feel like I have never been more clear that email and newsletters are my shticks. And whatever. At one point, it wasn’t WordPress on point it was a podcast, so

Kyle Van Deusen 53:03
Yeah, but it was all those things in between that got you to where you are. Now to figure it out. You know, I think I think the mistake. You know, I’ve seen a lot of people in my industry say, you know, I tried niching down, it didn’t work when? I don’t know about that. Yeah, I think what probably happened is you pick something because of whatever reasons, you tried it for a little bit, it didn’t immediately work. So you, you know, you withdrew and started over. Because I think anytime you can be more, you know, dialed into the people you’re trying to help that’s niching inherently is going to work you know. But I think if you force yourself into that, it’s going to be harder than if then if it happens organically. Now you might get lucky you might organically fall into that in six months. And that would be awesome. And I hope I hope that you do or it might take you 14 years and there’s probably not a whole lot you can do about that other than try stuff like you weren’t afraid to try different things and figure out what worked and go all-in on something to go Hmm you know what I came from on this really wasn’t it I’m gonna try something else you know, and it’s part of the process and it’s all those experiences added together that end up helping you find whatever that might be so for me the advice would try a bunch of stuff and figure it out and go all-in on something and see if it works from you see what you liked what you didn’t like because it’s all those experiences together they’re gonna add up to something you know.

Kim Doyal 54:31
It really is and I’m an attack on that. It’s funny and I’m curious if this is relevant to you at all is when I look at the stuff that I love doing most of my business where I have the most fun a that’s where the money is, but B it kind of circles back to stuff I love doing as a kid right like I almost went I almost was an art major in school like a graphic design. I almost did that. And but I truly in like, you know I do watercolors I had a scrapbook store I’m crafting right like by I mean, I brought back markers from Christmas. I’m like, I don’t have anything else. But I’m like, I made somebody a card the other day just for shits and giggles. And so, but it’s funny. So like, I’ve got that creative bent to me. I was also, music was big for I was singing I sang like I was really into performing Surprise, surprise, right. And so I was in that. But it’s funny because now I actually wanted, I really at one point in early college, I’m like, I want to do speaking, I want to be a motivational speaker, I want to do this. So I found a platform for that. The creativity, like you, look at the content creators planner that was born out of me mapping stuff out with colored pens, and sharing it and going, wow, there’s a market, people are still using pen, like, Oh, my God, journaling is like a hole. And it was like, these happy accidents. When I came back to the stuff that lights me up, right. And so and writing was kind of a happy accident because I had to write up people probably don’t believe this. But for a solo show, like I write my whole 2600 words, I write the post out, I don’t read it. But you can tell by the way I talk, I’m like, there’s gonna be no cohesive flow to a solo show. And I was like, wow, right. But it’s like, I started falling in love with that, like, I can take four hours on a podcast, and just enjoy the I’m quiet. And I’m writing and I’m thinking and I’m processing and then I get into optimizing the post or whatever. And so it blows me away that all the things that make me happiest and have my whole life and that are innate in me, are what I get to do and make money for now.

Kyle Van Deusen 56:33
Yeah, I don’t know that I draw exactly the same I, of course, I wasn’t, I don’t know, I didn’t like graduate from high school and go into college with some kind of plan. I didn’t go into college, I was playing music and just, you know, living my best life.

Kim Doyal 56:47
Back side, no, I had about four different majors just like I do in my business. So there we go.

Kyle Van Deusen 56:54
But, I mean, definitely, uh, you know, I’ve always been somebody that wants to, like, I enjoy starting something new, trying something out, figuring it out. And then kind of moving on to the next thing, you know, I’ve never been one that like, Okay, this is the path I want to take. And I want to do nothing but this and become the world’s, you know, foremost expert on whatever this topic is. So one thing that’s really nice about how the community has worked out is, if I wanted to test every piece of new website software, and just run an agency, that would be really, really tough to do. Because it’s not very profitable to try something new all the time, you kind of need to like, pick a stack of tools, go all-in with it, figure it out, and move forward on it. But what’s nice with the community is it does afford me that, you know, I can test a bunch of things and then share with the community what I found, you know, and then move on to the next thing. So I think there are ways that you just innately kind of are able to work in the things that you feel most passionate about when you’re in the right situation, you know.

Kim Doyal 57:55
And I honestly think that it’s a little bit of the difference between men and women too, right? Like, my therapist, women operate from an internal place, men are much more external. And so that I like to try fix things, you know, where you can apply that skill set to different things, right. And it just kind of surprised me. But, you know, I think guy Kyle, we’re gonna have to do a part two of this. But you know, any final words when it comes to business owners, and I really, I just think the thought management and how you approach what you’re doing any final bits of advice.

Kyle Van Deusen 58:30
I mean, fail forward. I think that’s such a cool thing. It’s been said a million times before, but you’re, you’re gonna learn so much from just taking risks and trying things and figuring out what worked and what you liked and what you didn’t like that. The worst-case scenarios you might play out in your brain are very unlikely to happen, you know, that is your mind kind of playing tricks on you. So, you know, I wish I would have tried the things I wanted to try a lot sooner, right. And instead of waiting, I think there’s always opportunity in that and you’ll find out what works and what doesn’t, and you’re going to find out a whole lot quicker if you just try than if you sit and think on it forever, you know?

Kim Doyal 59:09
Yeah. pontificate and plan and plan and plan by last bit of advice are to be easy about it. You know, it’s none of this is the end of the world. It’s just not and you’ll find out that most people aren’t spending that much time thinking about you anyways.

Kyle Van Deusen 59:25
They’re really not. Absolutely, no.

Kim Doyal 59:27
They’re not like, wait a minute, Kyle did something in 2011 That didn’t work. So I can’t buy this from him. He failed, right, you know, and the last thing, this is Alex from Mozi. There’s a great book called 100 million dollar offers if you guys haven’t read it, but he said something that I was like, oh my god, people who are where you’re going or ahead of you are never looking back and judging you. Right, so it’s just a reminder that the critics it’s it’s kind of the Man in the Arena fright stage right, you know, the speech. It’s, you know, the credit goes to the Man in the Arena. So to his pile, it’s always a joy to talk to you. We’re gonna one of these days. We’re gonna hang out and have some beers together.

Kyle Van Deusen 1:00:04
Absolutely. I’m, I’m down for it.

Kim Doyal 1:00:08
Alright, you hang on Kyle, guys. Thanks for listening. Hang on, and I’ll have all the outtakes and all the links will be in the show notes. Thanks so much, everybody.