Marketing for Agencies with Nicole Osborne FTH: 091April 19, 2022 August 13, 2022 /
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Where to Connect with Nicole Osborne
Kim Doyal 0:00
Before we get into today’s episode, I have a quick message for my sponsor cloudways. cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that simplifies your web hosting experience. The platform allows businesses to focus on their growth and have complete peace of mind 24/7. Support and flexibility to scale. Can we just say support is hugely important when it comes to hosting? And thanks to cloud wise they are offering an exclusive discount for the Kim Doyal show listeners, visit cloudways.com and use a promo code Chem 20 to get 20% off for two months on the hosting plan of your choice. Alright guys, let’s get into today’s episode. Welcome to F the hustle. I’m your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we’re going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. F the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports how you want to live your life. You don’t have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we’ll be talking about selling, charging what you’re worth, and help earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your terms. Hey, what’s going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the podcast at the hustle with Kim Doyal. I of course am your host Kim Doyal. And I’m really excited today because my guests and I have only chatted sort of online. This is really our first time getting to connect in person, and I’ll take an in-person video any day over just email. But we’re going to talk about growing an agency. She’s got a great YouTube channel. There’s a lot of stuff I’m going to pick Nicole’s brain about but let’s welcome my guests. Nicole Osborne of Wonder stars. Thank you for being here, Nicole.
Nicole Osborne 1:51
Oh, Kim, I’m so excited to be here. I think I told you I’m a total fangirl. So to have you in Costa Rica. And thank you for having me.
Kim Doyal 2:01
You’re, you know, it’s so funny. You know, you’re just like you and like if people say that to me, and it’s so funny. I used to tell my kid about my family. Like you know, you guys, I’m famous on the internet. And nobody believed me until like, my niece was 12. And she Googled me which it was all like blog posts and links and stuff. And I’m like, well, somebody believes me. But anyway, thank you.
Nicole Osborne 2:19
I’m on my seven-year-old. I’m speaking to Kim. She’s in Costa Rica.
Kim Doyal 2:24
Well, and you’re in Germany like this is what I love about are you in Germany. Oh, no.
Nicole Osborne 2:29
What? German-based in London. Oh, even matter. I talked to someone today in Florida and someone in Pakistan. So actually, today’s International Day. I’m loving it.
Kim Doyal 2:41
It totally is. It’s so funny when and for people. I’m really curious. And you guys have promised we’re gonna get into the interview here. But this is what I love about people in my offline world. Right, who it’s normal life day-to-day and it was like I was talking with I’m sure your friends at Pizza Neary this morning. I’m like, No, she’s an Italian, who spent a ton of time in London. And now she lives in Spain. Like, this is why I love this. It’s like the world is huge and small all at the same time.
Nicole Osborne 3:07
I love I love pizza. I just communicated with her via LinkedIn, chatting about her amazing program. And I think she’s absolutely nailing it on LinkedIn. And I just think she’s so authentic. And have you seen her artwork? She sometimes publishes that on Facebook. She’s oh my gosh, yes. Talented. Wow.
Kim Doyal 3:23
Oh, yeah. No, we literally just talked this morning for like over an hour. And that’s part of the goal. Mike, you need to come to Costa Rica, I need to come to Spain. And actually, I was supposed to go to London in May of 2020. So that is still on the list. But anyways. Okay, so before we get into and again, your site is one wonder stars and for people listening, it’s Wu, like you’re awesome. Wu, n d e r s t ARS. Everything will be in the show notes. But I love hearing the backstory and trying it or not. I want to hear what got you into this, besides the fact that you’re efficient and logical, which I loved in your bio, because you’re super fun, too. So like, let’s have a little bit of your background and how you got here.
Nicole Osborne 4:06
Thanks so much, Kim. So my parents and I grew up in former Eastern Germany. And you’ve got to know that there weren’t any sort of companies really out there. Everything was state-owned, but my parents were really entrepreneurial. So as the Wall came down, they came up with their own ventures, and have always helped them one of the first things I did was help them to sell sunglasses in a small seaside town, and I was responsible for picking the best shades and really making people feel good to spend some money but really feel good. So I have this intrapreneurial sense that was kind of sent fun. Then I came to England I wanted to learn the language. I met my now-husband. Yes, I’m still here. I wanted to study marketing because I knew I wanted to study something I could really put into action. So I studied Marketing. I started my corporate marketing career. Always wanted to be a marketing director for some reason or the other. I got to Marketing Director, it was great. But my God is precious of like having a young child going to board meetings. But what I have done for years and years and years, I’ve always worked with agencies, I was in a position of choosing agencies having really good partners. So when I started my own business, I started the lollipops social of Kim, I didn’t even like lollipops. Made my son feel really good. When I took him to the hairdresser, we traveled back to Germany. So I figured lollipop was a good sort of fun. I transitioned into winter Sass about a year ago really to kind of grow up. And really continuing my work with agency owners, I mostly work with agency owners one on one. And I help them to uncover their personal brand, what they stand for, to really improve their marketing so that they can pick their best with clients, you know, the clients who follow the processes who sent the content on time fun to work with, get what you do pay well, and yeah, I love doing it. So yeah, here I am with one of the stars. And you know, I’ve been listening to your podcast, I featured it on my YouTube blogs because it’s such a cool podcast for anyone building up an audience where you have an online journey because you always keep it so real. And there are so many actionable tips. So hence me being a total fangirl being here.
Kim Doyal 6:13
Like this is supposed to be about you. But you know, and I’m curious. This is again, everybody who listens knows I love to go off-script. And what one I love is that you pivoted the name, I mean, I went from the word pressure to Kim Doyal. And I’m even looking at as I grow, where is there an element of the company having certain things under it? My company name is marketing online media. Nobody even knows that. And it’s a mouthful. But it was, what I’m curious about for you is, as you’ve shifted, and I get the whole like my company was growing up, and it was time to step into this, you know, have you found in terms of even whether it’s processes or how you hire who you work with? For and this is really a female-specific question, right? And I love my male listeners, you guys, I’ve got you there. But there is we’re wired differently. So I’m just gonna go ahead and say that. And I feel that as a woman. I don’t know how old you are. But as women get older, like there is a sense of you start claiming your expertise, are you gonna whisper you can whisper later or unless you want to share it? To five? Girl? All right, all right, I’m 51. We’re good. So but there is you hit this point. And it’s, there is this. I like taking a stance almost. And so in really shifting and saying you want to grow your grow up a little bit as you know, what was sort of the mindset and the thought behind, I’m going to claim this space. And then we’ll talk about you know, you’ve jumped full in into YouTube also. So just kind of tell me what that process was like.
Nicole Osborne 7:46
I guess one of the biggest issues I had with my original company name lollipop socialists had people really assumed it had done-for-you social media services. And I learned really early on that. I bring all this marketing experience and just doing social media for someone who just wasn’t taking all my boxes. And you know, it’s not great when you have a name and you continuously have to explain what you do. And I thought, right, you know what, I’m all about marketing, let’s rebrand. But let me tell you, it’s, it’s an exciting, but equally exhausting journey, right? When you change everything around, you put yourself out there. But I had the most amazing agency and, you know, I have a really cool network that I was talking to people like emergent Allen at the time. Lee Jackson, you know, do you think I’m doing the right thing. But it was so important for me to have a sense of fun still in there, but something really confident as well. And I was determined to have a.com I know that’s really silly.
Kim Doyal 8:37
Really? I mean, if you can, why not? Right?
Nicole Osborne 8:41
And you never know anything happened that I decided on my brand name. And then one of the social media handles the kind of disappeared. I’m like, oh, no, boy, I’m making up a word to you let me have a name. But yes, it was also as you said about growing confidence. Do you know I think it’s always really important? You choose a business name, you have to be able to say it with a high level of energy that you have to picture yourself on that stage. Am I going to be comfortable saying hey, I’m Nicole from with the stars, and I really am? So yeah, it was about growing up. And it’s also, you know, working with digital agencies. These guys are amazing. They do amazing jobs for their clients and also have really high expectations. So I didn’t want to be mediocre because particularly I’m all about helping guys and girls to stand out. And to not blend into the background. So I had to sort of do something which reflected that transformation. But yeah, it’s been a journey and I’ve loved every minute of it. And it’s still up and down. You know, I think is really part of it all. But yeah, I’m really happy with the side and I had some really great results coming in and some amazing feedback. So thank you for asking me this. Even my podcasts will leave where we talk about the whole transformation of a brand and he even interviews with agencies. I thought it was a really cool sort of different perspective on it.
Kim Doyal 9:48
It’s totally and I do love your site. It’s super colorful. I like bright colors too. I’m just more of a which kind of reflects your personality and energy also, I think it’s totally in alignment. But one of the things I wanted to specifically dig in. So you love marketing. And I know so you’ve you explained sort of the journey here. But what I think is fascinating too, is I mean, agencies know, they need to market they get it. And I felt this. And let’s just be really clear that we all bring our own shit to the table, right. So I do know that a lot of this was sort of my own perceptions and stuff. Because I totally felt like an imposter is the word pressure because I’m not a coder or developer. But yet I fell in love with this tool. I just like to share what I was doing. And it evolved. Ignorance was bliss when I started. But I’ve also seen that like, how I felt sort of in that space was like it this push-pull against marketing at times because agencies just want to kind of do the work. And there is this specifically in the WordPress space, but anti-selling anti-marketing. And, you know, and again, I’m really not in the WordPress community a whole lot other than having a lot of friends there. But, you know, did you find any resistance? Or how did you approach saying, You guys need to start marketing?
Nicole Osborne 11:03
Yeah, I mean, actually, yeah, complete amount, because it’s, I guess, it’s not planned resistance. But it’s like, it’s so passionate about the client projects, that they get so engrossed into that, that they don’t really do too much about generating leads in the future. Now, then they get really trapped in this whole feast and famine rides really, really busy, or there’s not enough work. Or we’re really heavily relying on referrals. And can I get it, I guess, when you work, and you choose a digital agency, it’s a huge risk? So of course, you’re going to ask in your network, do you know a good agency, but in a way for that agency, they really get stuck on that price point. And I think agency owners to me, I mean, everyone has got different definitions of success. But one thing I really learned from interviewing all the agency owners I did for my agency growth book is that everyone is different. And for some people, it’s really, I want to be able to charge while they’re so that I can really offer a transformational project to my client, I really want to give them what they need to grow and take their business to the next stage, which usually involves you’ve got to have better processes, you’ve got to be able to chat Valpo. So then you do your marketing, you kind of get there much quicker because you can become that go-to person, you know, you step out of that whole entire invisibility. I mean, I didn’t know it was funny. I’m currently doing some research into SEO agencies because I’m going to be talking at Brighton SEO. And my talk is very much about you know, the more you get better clients, many SEO agencies, oh, my God, they’re all blue. They’re all Uber professionals. They’re all right content, which is like for the search engine versus for humans. And yes, hardly any people inside. It’s lots of stock photos. Now, when you end up competing on price, right, because you’re kind of a commodity because there’s so many of you offering that. So I really do a lot of educational content. And I always share examples of this, you know, if you only did that this is what you could achieve. So you could be that go-to person, every time you send your proposal. Everybody made up your mind, they’re going to be working with you. Because you’re the expert in that sphere. I guess, you know, we’re always a kick out of working with people who are marketing reluctantly.
Kim Doyal 13:01
Nicole Osborne 13:03
I’ve generally do I always get bored when people say to me, you can totally get by we need to do is, I want to have that challenge.
Kim Doyal 13:09
Or like, I want to flip you, I’m gonna tone you. Yeah. That’s funny. Well, but you know, what’s interesting, too, and specifically with the SEO piece, as you know, my hashtag, everything is content. I’ve tried drilling this down to people so much. And the thing about it is some of my highest traffic, most highly converting content has nothing to do with a damn keyword that would serve anybody. It brings people into my space. And I have this thing I call my core content values. I’m like, my core content value is that I want people to feel better for me engage with my content, you’re going to learn something, you’re going to be entertained, or I’m going to, we’re going to connect that kind of soul level, right? And I just, I mean, and what I see, and I’m curious if you see agencies too, is they do get hung up, I get as soon as people get like, well, I’ve got to write keywords, I’ve got, I’ve got SEO, I’ve got SEO and I’m like, you know, you do it matters 100% But at the same time, you know, I started out in 2008 in this space, and it was a lot easier to get pulled up. It’s the long game, SEO content. All of that is the long game. But there are elements to marketing where you can connect quickly and make a splash and it’s that personal connection. Right. Go ahead. Sorry.
Nicole Osborne 14:29
Absolutely. And so my strategy is often I do my best for people to have quick wins I just had this conversation earlier with someone in Florida Great guy, great agency so much potential. So we had a brainstorm on lead generation because I know once that person does that and gets the team involved, it will automatically call that’s the next thing we can do to really set up a personal running. Do you know who can? It’s often lots of confidence. I chatted to someone based in Ireland yesterday. Really successful agency owner and it’s a confidence thing of color have nothing interest seemed to say, what really, I have nothing going on. I used to do surfing. But now I’m not really fit any longer. So I can’t talk about surfing. So we kind of dug a bit deeper. And we figure out other stories, that person was really comfortable sharing. So it’s a bit like, do you know Dave, for you? I mean, he’s an amazing guy, right? Oh, he’s a wonderful online entrepreneur. And he really didn’t feel very, very brave when it came to sharing his story. So what we did actually, we figured out, so what’s the anti version? How do you not want to come across and for him, it was douchey Dave who would pretend to own a sports car and be shouting into the camera and, you know, you smiling now because that’s really not how he comes across. So we figured it out. And then we dug into his stories. And we’ve thought about so the viewer audience there, what are the best stories for you to connect, what will make them feel like you can help them with a transformation thereafter. And boy, he’s, you know, he’s taking it to another level, I don’t know, when you get a chance to have a look on his website, he’s published his story. And it’s so powerful, you sit there and read it, and you get goosebumps. Now, I’m not saying I can always achieve that level of transformation. But you want to have that real personal connection with the best person you want to work with. Right? And so personal branding, storytelling, putting yourself out there, and not being afraid of actually letting, letting go that need to be professionalism, because my experience is for agency owners. As soon as I want to be too professional, really boring.
Kim Doyal 16:25
Yeah, I keep when I see sites like that, um, all right, Microsoft wants our website back, like here, we got like, circa 1995, right. It’s just like stock photos that the whole the whole nine yards of the nine yards. And, in the thing is like, where you were saying, like with Dave, you know, it’s fun. Because for those of us who know him to see the trajectory of his career, and you know, he’s just doing phenomenal. And I love when Dave shares Oh, it’s those little bits, like, you’re happy, like other building a house. That’s phenomenal, right? And we all know, Dave’s a musician, and, you know, so you start seeing these pieces. And you just start thinking, Oh, I have a friend that that plays guitar. I mean, you have no idea these little I, I joke around that, like one of my biggest regrets was not getting into email earlier. But I think there’s a piece there that ties into your marketing. And it’s when you start understanding the psychology of how human beings connect, and what drives them to do things. It’s like going into a portal of a magic kingdom, you’re like, Oh, my God, it flips it right? Instead of feeling like, Alright, I need to come up with a unique value proposition. And here’s a tagline, but without having any understanding. And the thing is, and I’m curious about this, your thoughts on this, like, you know, I’m anti hustle, but I’m a big believer in doing the work. So I think there’s a balance. And I feel like we get lost with the grind, and the hustle and the work, work in the magic of who you become in doing it. Like I love getting lost writing a blog post in a podcast episode for like, four or five hours and like, Okay, this was fun. And oh, my god, Kim, you’re pretty damn good at this. Right? So is there a mindset shift there? And I know we’re talking a lot about mindset, but the fact that you show up on YouTube, which I want to get into your channel, and you have to dig into these stories with agencies, you know, where do you see those blocks for them in terms of, you know, you got to show up differently.
Nicole Osborne 18:15
So it’s often about connecting what was about how their friends would describe them as stories their friends find memorable or things their audience could find memorable. And it’s actually having that courage to talk about maybe you used to be in a rock band. This is what I love about you and Abby both neat no Vito founder of uttering, you know, he used to be in a rock band, I mean, his about page for his company, it’s about that, I mean, that draws you in. It’s about recognizing that people are really bored with perfection. Do you know, you and I, we could have the absolute most amazing setup. I don’t think we would let people in if it was all perfect. Because
Kim Doyal 18:59
I don’t know the energy girl. Exactly. Right.
Nicole Osborne 19:02
You know. I wear bright colors because sometimes I’m tired. And I know I’m Uber energetic. I know who I am. But I also get tired. So it’s sharing those moments with your audience and for the agency, owners are allowing themselves to do that, but also empowering my team members because as I grow, you know, versus again that their presence on social media content becomes already sterile, because all of a sudden may have this person doing it who I don’t know if it’s okay to say that. Mostly it is okay to say it. And if you really you know, if you really struggle to work with a coach, as you came with me where we give people really honest feedback. No, this is too far. You don’t want to go there, but this is totally good.
Kim Doyal 19:44
It is and also I was gonna say getting people with agencies specifically again, because they’re great at delivering the polished product, right? They’re great at they probably my guess is a lot of the agencies you work with, have systems and they’ve got a team and all that kind of stuff. But it’s also one of my favorites is I started studying copywriting. And again, the psychology behind how all this works is it’s just ninja when you get it, and it’s, it’s that but what does that mean? But what does that mean? You know, or so that you do this so that that’s I learned that from another copywriter? And and is there a way like, how do you work with agencies and you don’t have to give away anything proprietary, but to get them from this, I know we need a market or Okay, you’ve convinced me to market to finding the voice. Because, as far as I understand, too, it’s not a switch if you can get that switch or that divine hit, but it’s usually a process, right?
Nicole Osborne 20:40
So I usually start by looking at really where they’re currently at and assessing their skills. And also going down to do you actually know what your brand is about? Are those values, most agency brand values, really just hygiene values, really boring value safety professional and that you have high levels of integrity?
Kim Doyal 21:00
And we write a mission statement? Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Osborne 21:03
What does that actually mean in terms of how you work with your clients? what your culture is really like? How do your colleagues describe you? Because I think once you have a set of values, so you can have some hygienic boring values, but also some really meaningful ones, you want to have some stand up on the slide. So when you think about so how do we want our clients to feel when they touch base with our content? Right? You said you entertain people and educate people? And those are common themes, right? So how can we do it in a way which really resonates with our sector? So if I’m specializing in accountancy websites, what are the issues we can’t see guys really struggle with? I think there’s so much opportunity when you stop needing to be absolutely perfect, and everything to be so polished when you just allow yourself to experiment. And you know, that’s probably the biggest thing I’ve learned. Being five years in business is sketchy. Got it, allow yourself to take a risk to make mistakes and say, I miserably failed. I’m going to try something else. And it’s absolutely okay. Because every time you do you can make better in a way, right? Because what’s the worst that can happen? What is the worst that can happen when you run an online business? Right? Because, you know, I guess I’d be pandemic everything. People save lives. We inspire people, right? We help them get their transformation. But what’s the worst thing that can happen?
Kim Doyal 22:15
Well, yeah, and do you find most people are busy thinking about themselves? To be honest with you? I mean, I have been so public about, oh, this didn’t work. This didn’t work. Or I tried that, and whatever. And someone had asked me one time why you’re so public about it. And it’s interesting because I would probably say, you know, the judgments about failure are heavy. And in my personal life online, I’m like, Well, I’m testing. I’m figuring it out. Like, it’s weird how I’m able to do that. So I’ve started reframing. And again, it’s age, I’m like, Well, now, you know, you don’t want to do that, again, Kim personally, right?
Nicole Osborne 22:49
Do you not and I love that. And this is what I love about your newsletter, it’s you keeping it really real. Most agencies don’t even have a newsletter when it comes to their clients. And when they do, it’s like this big, huge corporate newsletter. So I come in there, and I read and I say, I’m sorry, but if I receive as I’d be bored, yeah, if I see your proposal, it’s full of tech words. I’m sorry, I won’t even look at it. What can you do to spark my interest? What can you do to show a connection? Are you pitching for business in London? Have you been in business? Or have you been to London five years ago? Could you connect with that business? What can you do? And you know, this is actually where I really help agencies as well, because I bring that client perspective. And I’m not afraid of saying, I’m sorry, this is too boring, I will just you know, I see a side on clutch and
Kim Doyal 23:32
looks like there’s the efficient, logical German, right?
Nicole Osborne 23:36
And you know, what we like, we sort of got to do it or can’t do this. So I do this accountability, where I check in with my clients on a weekly basis, you know, usually Facebook Messenger, we send each other gifts and like, look what you’re struggling with, let me help you. It really helps people to come out of that comfort zone, because we all just want to do things how we’ve always done, things aren’t the same. So we need to be pushed out of that comfort zone, right? We need to be inspired, but then also like, it’s okay to do something different. Get some good results. If it doesn’t work. Try it out again.
Kim Doyal 24:08
Well, sorry. Like, don’t you think it’s funny when you think about it on one hand, like we get from say, you know, age to, like, 20, that we try new things, we’re going to be uncomfortable. That’s how we learn. And all sudden we hit adulthood. And it’s like, well, I can’t fail anymore. It’s funny. And so like, I sent an email recently about getting comfortable with the discomfort, of course, it’s uncomfortable.
Nicole Osborne 24:33
It’s totally, and I think it’s also because we work online and so many of our network or our friends, family, they don’t get what we do. Now, it’s hard sometimes because you’re like, Okay, I do marketing.
Kim Doyal 24:48
My dad finally understood it when when I launched the planter and I had a physical product. You know, it was like, other than that, he’s like you’re on a lot of calls. We’re always called. I’m like Doesn’t matter down like he’s 77. God bless him retired police officer, he bet he hates the internet. He’s like, anyway, but you know, so it’s like, still dear friends that have followed me on this journey. They’re like, so what do you do, I’m like, go to my website, I don’t need to sell you.
Nicole Osborne 25:16
My hobbies. He’s very supportive generally, but he’s an electrical engineer. So it’s like really at the other end of the spectrum. Because, you know, obviously, it offers you love and you call this work to mess up. And look, if you think about it, I do my marketing so I can get to work with the kind of people that I can have a laugh with them while we get things done, because I know if they laugh, they’re more likely to do things, especially things that are comfortable. And yes, I do like to have a laugh. So it’s funny how, you know, he’s much more structured and all of that, and we online, right? We, make constant business cases for people about what we could be doing differently, and when we offer them the tools to do it. See is fascinating. I always think you have to be able to explain things to a child, then it makes sense.
Kim Doyal 25:56
Absolutely. And I did a which is funny, I need to update it. But years ago, like a PowerPoint sort of manifesto video. And if it’s not fun, I’m not doing it. And I can tell you that I don’t have conversations with people I don’t enjoy anymore. I don’t dread my email inbox like you have to back into how do you want to feel that’s my mantra. Let’s, I want to pivot a little bit to your YouTube channel. Because girl, you are blowing that up. So first of all, what made you decide to because you’ve kind of seems like you’ve doubled down like you’re going all-in you’re making YouTube work for you. So what made you decide to create the channel? Wow.
Nicole Osborne 26:32
Gosh, I don’t admit this very often. But I really wanted to challenge myself. I was really scared of making videos. I knew I could work on my blog writing. Even when it came from a backup. I had copywriters for everything. I knew I could work on that I knew YouTube would be much, much harder. And then it got to the stage where Oh, actually, you know what if I look around in the agency world, and it will, especially in the WordPress world, there are so many guys who are doing an amazing job. And you know, I’m friends with many of them, and I’m really in awe of what they do. But they’re not that many women. And it’s very much about you know, use Elementor use Divi have this form all of these amazing things which agency owners need to know. But it isn’t so much about real marketing advice about real. This is how it’s done. This is who does it well be inspired by that example. And I thought You know what, there’s a niche. So I really worked on my video skills. Oh my god, you know, I did one of these crazy Facebook challenges years ago, you do a video every day, no matter where you are. I hired a live video coach, a really great guy. I learned so much from it. And it just kept going. And you know, I love YouTube. It’s a continuous learning process. You know, I haven’t figured out the algorithm I don’t think anyone has. But I had some really great feedback. You know, recently WordPress users vote on my channel, top marketing channels, and we’re WordPress awards by Devender. And I was so I mean, right. I mean, that’s such a great accolade. And I get my coaching leads. Often words, people may see me speak, they see me on podcasts, and they’d sign up for my newsletter. Check out vlogs Oh, my god, yeah, Nicole, I’ve listened to that. And I really liked what you said about bad pages, or we implemented that. And it really worked. So it’s kind of I love doing it, but I still find it challenging. But I’m also getting work from it. So for me, that’s a really happy, medium better, I wanted to be there. I think we all create content because we love it. But there’s a business reason for it. And you know, when I work with agencies, yes, I want you to invest in content, but you will also see returns, you know, you will get people approaching you and they already know you already want your services.
Kim Doyal 28:32
Well, and it’s that and you know, it’s like when I started my podcast, and like I did, so I want to have more fun. I was like, I am so tired of being just behind the screen and actually wanted to be a motivational speaker at one point who I really did in college that was like I’m and I’m like, in a way I get to integrate it. And, you know, but it was just I let go of the attachment. But I mean, I got coaching clients from and I had website clients, I got sponsorship, I’m like, you don’t there’s this little esoteric, but a when you do something, you did it for you as a challenge for yourself but also wanting to provide value. So there was an end goal, in terms of this needs to have a return on my time at some point, right? But I think when you show up and maybe it’s altruistic, but in this, I’m gonna have fun. I’m gonna do this and see what happens. And let yourself learn during that process, right? I mean, I’ve had so many people sorry, go ahead, go ahead and
Nicole Osborne 29:28
try to let yourself land you know, and I know my channel has our most successful videos one of the ones I find totally cringe Berry. But I think that’s the case and I even encourage people that don’t look up to all these content creators to look at their first pieces. Nobody you know, take that first step right.
Kim Doyal 29:46
Yeah, I get that all the time with people and you know, it’s interesting like we definitely are gonna have to find a way to hang out in person but you know, it’s funny because the I felt the same way with email on like, there are so many men talking about email marketing. There are a lot of female copywriters who also talked about email, but it was like, I just have fallen in love with it and newsletters and whatnot. I’m like, I’m going to claim this space. And I’ve had people say to me, oh, you should do a YouTube channel. I’m like, I have one a lot of it’s old how to do this stuff, or whatever. But I’m like, I will. But it’s like, I want to know that I can keep up with it. And I’ve got an editor and I’ve got someone to go do this. And that. So it may be coming in until many people are like, Oh, but you’re in Costa Rica looks beautiful, Mike, I get it. But the older I get, the more whitespace I like in my life, and so
Nicole Osborne 30:33
totally, right. And you know, I need the whitespace too, because particularly with my coaching clients when we talk about their personal branding, I need to have that headspace to really get under the skin. And I need to have time in my diary, but I do nothing. So that’s something I really cottoned onto over the last year or two to be wise. I was saying no to actually having better opportunities in the long term. And you know, for me, can you live by the beach? I totally envy I have to be open about that. I live in the middle of London. So I go on a scooter, right, I have this manual scooter, and every day I go on a scooter, right, because that’s when I really have to concentrate because the pavement is really wobbly. I don’t want to fall off. I have to be there in my moment. But it relaxes me. It’s a bit of exercise. And I can just like enjoy a wind, if it’s windy, wetter or not the sun, and you need to take that space back. But that’s a work in progress. Like I mean, we’re not born perfect. Like for Davey factors. We don’t start off our businesses with a four-day week. But I mean, that’s just an illusion.
Kim Doyal 31:26
No, it does it well. And you know, it’s interesting, I had a point, I don’t know how long I’ve been doing it, I don’t do calls on Monday and Friday, they are blocked like you can’t schedule it. And I’ve also there was something so I got COVID in January vaccinated, knocked me off for two weeks. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of delicious, like all this time, not that I had the energy to do anything I didn’t. But it gave me this glimpse. And this is where I do this kind of backing into what I want, how I want to feel, what’s the work I enjoy spending my time doing, you know, and I think the other piece is, I started writing this blog post. And it’s the mindset of productivity hacks and goals. And again, not a dig at men, but it’s like, and there’s data and science that I always have direction and stuff. But at the same time girl, like do not give me a planner that’s going to require me to it’s a part-time job to manage a to-do list, I’m not going to do it. And I know what works for me. And so I think like as you’re working with these agencies in your gut, we all have different processes, right and it’s
Nicole Osborne 32:29
yet processes and also different hang-ups and misses because I guess when you marketing or client-side, you very much are always selling the ideas to your sales team and your finance team. This will work we haven’t done this before. But let me invest if it doesn’t work for the assets you’re already selling, selling selling. So with the agency, it’s kind of like getting deeper What is hanging out what is it they’re really struggling with. Now if it’s let’s say writing, email, writing blog writing well, then why not just share your ideas, and you get a really great copywriter invite. If it’s a video and maybe the video isn’t for you, it’s not for everyone. It doesn’t have to be for everyone. You could be a really perfect blog, blog post. So our podcast guests or have your own podcast. So it’s about figuring out what you would enjoy because as you said, you know, you wouldn’t have done what you’ve done and achieved all of that if you hadn’t enjoyed it. It is absolutely key. And we don’t start off knowing straightaway what we love and what we enjoy. But as we get to know it and give yourself permission to really lean into that now, you know, I knew breaking out of corporate and all these branding trackers, I never want to try and blend into the background again. Because try and do work when you want me to at in German at all. It’s not easy anyway. I’m done with having to wear grey suits because I’m in a very, very male environment. I’m absolutely done with it. I want to do what suits my personality. what energizes me and what makes me feel great. And come on come? How lucky are you? And I bet we have switched our careers and gone for all these changes. So essentially, we can now do what we love doing. I’m not saying we always get it right, or we’re not mega-rich, but be comfortable. Right. But it’s coming.
Kim Doyal 34:05
And absolutely, absolutely right. And the other piece of this though it was really interesting is I spoke to a friend of mine that we worked in corporate together before 1415 years ago. And she had messaged me on Facebook and she just had multiple great ideas for stuff to do online. And, and she was in HR. And this is a huge major retailer. And, you know, she reached out and message me on Facebook. She said, Oh, I gave my notice. And I was like, congratulations, right? And so then we hopped on a zoom call and she was telling me this is the epitome to me of corporate America anyways. So she’s an HR and she has literally spent she said I spent all my time doing intakes. I’m all it takes for what she said every time somebody gets COVID in the company. She has to go do an intake call. I’m like, what? I’m always for your region. I’m like, why didn’t they just set up a page you could do a video Do they could do an intake form and if somebody wants to fall she goes exactly huge company with tons of money and, and they focus on buzzwords and this but it’s so ineffective. But what she said to me, she goes, God, you really made this work, you stuck with it. And so at the time, and I think this is for everybody, for every agency, maybe they’re if they’re struggling, or I need to hire, but I can’t afford to hire because a lot of times we have to do stuff before we’re ready. Right? So it’s that Indiana Jones, where you have to take a step off the ledge, and then the steps appear. But I’m like, right, it was hard then. So how do you let me ask you this when you’re working with an agency, and they’re coming in, and they know something has to change? Right? They know something has to change. So how do you get them to start seeing you have to take the risk sometimes before you get the results?
Nicole Osborne 35:47
Yeah, it’s, you know, one technique I use, and I’m sure many coaches do is it’s actually just really talking about what does success look like? Income levels kind of clients where work, work-life balance, kind of teams for hair, how big they want their teams. And it’s kind of when you picture that in? And when you dig into more, why does that really drive you? Why does that really matter? Something shifts with their motivation. And I guess I’m very intuitive. Because I love working with marketing system people. It’s funny, actually. But I’m very intuitive about what their fears are sort of, sort of, kind of, you know, okay, you said that. And then you kind of find a solution around that. And it’s that, oh, God, you know, I can really do this, they can’t I just need to do it like that. While maybe I can now try such a thing. And do you know, I absolutely love it. One of my agency owners really resistant to LinkedIn, oh, my God, but his audience has to do LinkedIn. So small challenges, small steps. And you know, in the end, followed some of the LinkedIn Haxby optimized his profile, and he attracted a project, which was 15 times the normal value of his digital marketing projects. And I’m sorry, once you have that kind of result, and that kind of level of motivation, you continue to get going right?
Kim Doyal 37:02
Oh, my God, girl. This is interesting because the newsletter that I’m writing tomorrow I was talking about. So if people aren’t listening, but after the hustle, go subscribe to that. But I had been listening recently to a podcast with Russell Brunson. And it was the marketing secrets and they had done a live event for some econ challenge with Allison Prince and but what was really cool is they publish all these podcast episodes of hot seats, right? People are having questions and stuff. And so I do you listen to it? No, not yet. But okay, this is it was a great episode. And the episode title is, hold on, it’s actually here is I’m selling the vision, not the product. Absolutely. And they give a great example. And, and I’ll just do a quick summary here because I didn’t put it in the email. But there was a gal that she’s a chef and she’s written an ebook on Breck on quick breakfast. But her whole point is about she wants families to start being able to spend a little bit of time connecting starting their day that way. And so she’s made breakfast super easy, and all this kind of stuff. She’s like, 56,000 followers on Instagram 750 on her email list, which Russell Brunson said email today is still our number one channel and you think about the money behind Click Funnels, but paid traffic. I have to steal that snippet. But what was interesting is so the shifts that Russell gave them, he said, You know, I’ve got twins that are sophomores in high school. And he said I’ve got two years left with them. He said, If you had sold me on making the most of my mornings with my kids before they go off to college and this, as it gives me goosebumps, you start seeing nobody wants another ebook, right? And so your this is what I’m pulling out from when you start digging in with them. Right? It’s what their life looks like?
Nicole Osborne 38:43
What does my life because I really learned very early on that it’s not about money? Usually, it’s usually a combination of things fine. So we start figuring that out and when we take that okay, so how do you currently manage your time now, I don’t position myself as a productivity code. But I know I have to help agency owners to free up some of our time to be able to work on my business rather than in their business. Right and I know it’s such a cliche, but it is so true.
Kim Doyal 39:06
So can I just say really quick, cliche sayings my therapist said to me once she goes, Kim Why do you think they stick around what do you think trite sayings because they’re true? They’re
Nicole Osborne 39:19
free, free coating questionnaire, and one of the things I said What does your week look like sent me a screenshot because I want to see how organized people are because often met somebody you can have really quick wins. And you know, we saw my client in Florida we gave him some really fancy names. He’s now got weekly slots on there for lead generation for marketing for he had to like create a lot of SOPs and doing over processes, and that’s like as a freedom pass. And because he’s given names, you can relate to it. I know the names, we can now talk about them. So this is a vision. This is how you get there because personally, I always struggle with oh, you couldn’t get to get to the moon. I want to see what the first step means. Like maybe a transatlantic flight on if you’d Get right in straightaway. I can’t relate to it. I’m like, No, I can’t do it.
Kim Doyal 40:03
How do I get to Florida? Yeah,
Nicole Osborne 40:05
I had this really sort of crap really highly creative boss, I’d be Financial Times, but he always was like, right up there, and people just bet you could watch them. I can’t do that. And the whole point is you want to make people feel empowered like to give it a go. Might be scary, but I’d give it a go. So, yeah, I’m always very practical best. And I think that it’s a German thing because you know, we like to have structure and processes and regularity. So I can’t I can’t switch that site off. Ah, actually, I use it in my branding all the time. I’m not gonna switch it off.
Kim Doyal 40:36
Well, no. And the other piece of this is, don’t you find like I know, with, like, I’ve made a big investment in sort of a coaching program. And I’m like, the timing was right. And what appealed to me about it one, and this comes back to marketing agencies or not, is speaking my language, I love the idea of a no sales call, program, no sales calls for high ticket, I’m like that spoke to me, this person does not spend a ton of time on social. I seem like I’m antisocial. I’m not I just can’t, you know, I just don’t want to put a ton of time I want to be where I want to be. And I want my brain. I want it to work in a way that supports how I want to feel. And so the whole point is she spoke exactly to you know, I was like no, that appealed to me, that appealed to me, that appealed to me, you know, and so and I think what you were saying, but the point with the systems and the processes, and the SOPs is that that doesn’t mean I don’t have to create that stuff. And I’m like, Okay, I’m going to do the work. That’s not my favorite work in order to hire the team. In order to scale. It’s part of the process. So for agencies, you know, it’s funny, I’m gonna have to connect to a friend of mine who has kind of just blown up into an agency kind of quickly through a lot of referrals and stuff. And she’s, you know, hired our first project manager, and she hired a US-based project manager, and I said, you know, girl, and I’m not I love overseas, everybody’s capable. That’s not it. But I think for her, being willing to invest a little bit more in that role, leveled her up, as I know, the second, I made this investment in myself for this program. I started canceling stuff left and right in the cold, and I’m like, this doesn’t support where I’m going. And I am so focused, right? So do you
Nicole Osborne 42:13
know I get to, it’s so funny to say that I have a business coach, and it’s been absolutely instrumental. And you know, what we agency owners I talked about in my Instagram series, they about 98% of them had invested in coaching and training for something to really take them from where they are to the next step because we all have dreams, but do we always have the courage to go for them? Not always. Right. And I think that’s kind of really fun of running your own business. You can choose what you invest in and if it’s yourself, you know about yourself what it is, do you know can I have to admit when you go out with your next email product? I’m going to be so on that because I love it. No, I really love the way how you explain it, and it resonates with me because I can picture you as a person. I need to be a bit entertained and you do that.
Kim Doyal 43:03
Sometimes it’s self-deprecating, but I can own that.
Nicole Osborne 43:06
I love it. I do you know, I do the same. I stood on stage saying how I used to love David Hasselhoff. I mean, come on.
Kim Doyal 43:13
Girl I’ve read. Yeah, I read that. I was like, This is gold. You know, it’s funny. I’ve had this is a so non sequitur. I’ve had two celebrity crushes in my life. The first was Shaun Cassidy. Yep, I was like eight years old. I literally named a parakeet Shawn. Okay, I’m total. And my current crush that I am so not ashamed of is Chris Hemsworth. I’m like, they broke the mold with that, man. I’m just like, I have to google him. Who is it? For? It’s Thor from the Avengers.
Nicole Osborne 43:44
Yeah, good choice. You can hear my voice.
Kim Doyal 43:48
But I have to tell people and this is like so like, this is just the dumbest eighth grade and eighth-grader and me coming out. But what it is is yes, he is just a spat. He’s beautiful. He’s right. Easy. He is so funny. He doesn’t take himself too seriously. I think he’s a good human being. I don’t know him personally, obviously. But I’m like, I just I like the whole piece. I think he’s funny. He just doesn’t take himself too seriously. And he is like this huge world superstar right with the universe.
Nicole Osborne 44:19
Kim wants to hang up before you here. This is Costa Rica sort of amazing place.
Kim Doyal 44:26
And his wife even because she’s got you know, it’s so funny. Like, I watched a little clip of them on vacation. And they’d gone to get ice cream or something. And she’s got it on her nose. And she’s like, is there anything on my face? He’s like, No, you look great. You know, and it’s like, or either walking along a snowbank and he pushes her in it. I’m like, these guys are fun, you know, and it’s it just endears you more to people and you don’t have to be a celebrity to be able to connect with people. I want to talk to you. Let’s all get back on track here about your book. So lets because I know you’re working on that one. But let’s talk a little about your book what it is in
Nicole Osborne 44:56
effect. So my intention was I really wanted To find out how agency owners across the world are growing those agencies, what is their secret to success? And I wanted to do this because I’ve always enjoyed listening to stories and really learning what makes people tick. Right? This is like a nice meaty research project, I reached out to lots of lots of people. And I interviewed actually 29 People across four continents. And I put all the best growth tips together in my agency growth but isn’t a free ebook. And if you can put the link in the comments, let you guys know, to introduce Well, I chatted to be fine. And I wanted to show people that everyone has got different versions of success, and I wanted to show them what inspired them and what they might have been, but most of all, and that’s very much my style. It’s actionable tips. So I didn’t want people to think, Oh, my God, this is totally unachievable. And you know, I loved it when I spoke to Jason wrestling, and I know you and Jason have so you work together on delivering it is preferred issue, Nicole Osbourne is already addicted to it. I’m not ashamed of it. But you know, one of the reasons he started off his business, was he wanted to be able to work from home and see his kids, right. So he went through all the troubles of that taking on jobs to learn all the skills. And now he’s so successful. He also really honed into his personal brand, right? Like he’s the guy from New York and is so visible, and Jaysus bit of an introvert, he wouldn’t mind saying that, but he’s really turned that around. And I just find that so fascinating. So I pulled all of his insights together. And I just launched the agency growth, but I really want to get to 50 interviews, because I got such a kick out of it. It’s been so exciting. So it’s actually an ebook. It’s not a book book. So you know, you said earlier, we have to decide what we want to do. I’ve not had the desire yet to publish a book book. For me, it’s like I’m really going to lean into YouTube, I love being a podcast guest but creating a book. I think it’s gonna really excite you to be wanting to do it. And I admire people who do it. I mean, you see it on my little video wall, like, these are books I’ve read, and people I know, you know, Jamie, digital, all of it. So it might not be for me right now, but an ebook that people can download, and then we’re on my email list. So like, Yeah, bring it on?
Kim Doyal 47:05
Absolutely. Well, it’s, you know, writing a book has always been on my, my radar, and but it’s like I kept, you know, it’s kind of like, how if the hustle was born for me, you know, I came up with that name, like, six years ago, thank you. And it was like, I was looking at something else. And I knew I wanted to do a newsletter. Because I just love them. I love the fact that they’ve come back and newsletters just like podcasts and YouTube channels. It’s easy to succeed if you’re willing to stick with it. So many people quit, right. And so there’s that. But the whole point was the book thing. You know, it’s like, I have a friend who’s kind of a book coach and stuff, and she messaged me on Instagram, she’s like, well, I’m going to your book. And I’m like, probably the summer like, there. Because if the hustle resonates with me, it pulls in my life, my business, all of these things. And so the point of that is to your point is do it when it works for you. There are so many different types of media to publish and show up as it’s, it may never be right. Or it might I mean, it took me this long to really get to email marketing and writing as a niche. Even though I’m pretty personable. And I like to show up. I was like, God, I have fallen in love with this process.
Nicole Osborne 48:13
Now, I think it’s so important to do things when you feel there, right? Like, for me a really huge priority. So so my family is all in Germany, I want to be able to spend most of August in Germany. So everything I do is kind of okay, well that helped me to go spend the summer with my family, I don’t want to have to worry about work. So everyone has time short, right. But for me, that’s one of the motivations. I love seeing my family in Germany. So, but there will be days when I actually do not, yeah, let’s do a book. But you have to be really committed, and you have to feel passionate about and get joy from it. Right. I think I generally think life is too short not to have joy, whatever that might look like, right?
Kim Doyal 48:48
No, that’s actually my therapist, mentor. She’s like, she believes our primary responsibility is joy in this life, and I resonate with that 100%. And, you know, it’s funny, even today, you know, it’s like, I’m so excited about this program I’m doing and where I’m going. And I’m feeling this, like how maybe I should start getting up earlier and writing and I had calls today I got another call after you and I had peaches. And I’m like, No, I have not talked to peaches since like November or December, like, I’m gonna wake up when I want. That’s why I do this, I’m going to enjoy, I’m going to be present, you know. And so it’s coming back to that place, which then gives you the fuel to get back to work.
Nicole Osborne 49:27
Right? Absolutely. And for agency owners, you know, we’re gonna be more relaxed and chilled out in the office around our team, if they have that fear of reclaimed that time. So I had a message earlier from a client and went stressful situation. And I said, Look, I don’t want to sound like you remember if you’ve got some time that you can go to your local beach or just take some time out because I know if you do that you’re going to be more capable dealing with that. And I know you can deal with that because you’ve had COVID twice you have a big you can do this, but sometimes we need to be told just to take some time away from it all right, and it’s the best thing you can do in most situations.
Kim Doyal 49:59
I just saw that I don’t mean to be your mom. That’s what I was giggling about. You’re gonna
Nicole Osborne 50:03
be practical and be like, I noticed, like, Yeah, could sound like your mom. But honestly, I mean it because it’s good for you.
Kim Doyal 50:11
And I think because as women, we finally get there, ideally, right? I know that I’ve gotten to that place that like, like, seriously, COVID was such a blessing for me, because I could not work. I had to put myself first, I had to reach out and ask for help. I’ve got friends here. I asked, my therapist actually has property down here. She’s back and forth, which is kind of what made me go, oh, I want to check out because she’s retired, but I didn’t let go. But I mean, I let her she said, Do you need anything? I’m like, Yeah, can you go to the pharmacy for me, and I was like, I got it. I got it. Like I’m not used to. But I’m like, I’m in a foreign country by myself. I’m gonna lean into the people. And so I think as women we start, we start doing that more, and you know that, okay, if I don’t refuel, this isn’t gonna work
Nicole Osborne 50:54
completely, completely. And I think it’s a good thing. Like one of my best friends, we connected because we were both made redundant at the same time. So we ended up sorry, I laughed nervously. But we ended up having this weekly pub lunch where we started our careers, and we had a drink, and we had lunch. Now she went back into a corporate really great job. I built my own business, but we weren’t there for each other. And we help each other through these tough times. So it kind of makes you stronger. But you have to allow yourself just to go through all of that to then come up with the other end. Sorry, I don’t know why I just brought this up.
Kim Doyal 51:23
No, but you know, it’s funny. I know. I love it. Because like, I actually I’m a doodler. I’ve got journals, I doodle I draw, and stuff. And I had, I was thinking about the failures and the depths and the stuff that we go through. And I had to draw it out for myself. And so I drew out my journey. And so it’s like, you’re going along a path and there’s a hill, right, you go up and you get down, and then you go a little bit further. And then there’s a dip. But what was visually helpful for me was that, even with the Hill on the dip, I’m still further along on my journey. Like, I’m still going towards the destination. So that brings me this is a good kind of round-up question for you here. So what do you want for your business? Like, where do you see it going? Do you want to, if it’s too personal, it’s okay. But like kind of your dreams and ambitions for where you want to take your company.
Nicole Osborne 52:10
Yeah, so I really like to get some more coaching clients. So before the pandemic, I was very much at my optimum, but a has suffered. And I like to really have that balance of at the moment, I’m, I’m exploring some sponsorship opportunities for my channel, and it’s really exciting. So I want to have that balance. The biggest thing you can see, I’m not too specific, is my goals because what I’ve learned from the pandemic, is you have to be flexible. Now, I always want to go for the next thing. And it’s not always money’s for me, the next thing is to always be able to take the weekends off to come to spend the summers in Germany to have a few fun days scattered in. Really just to spread the Wonder SAS goodness, and to have a good time I’m doing it, and to really help agencies work with our perfect clients because everyone is frustrated about not getting content and people not paying well enough. So if you do your marketing, you can fix all these things.
Kim Doyal 53:07
No, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. And you know, what I loved about it, too is I really I focus on intentions. How do I want to feel who I want to be? And where do I do have goals? Of course, I’ve got financial goals, I’ve got things goals, but it’s to be able to show up with joy and work with the people I want to work with and do work my love, you know, so you kind of can’t be there. All right, where’s the best place for people to find you. And again, all the links will be in the show notes, guys, I’ll be emailing this, but where’s the best place for people to connect with you?
Nicole Osborne 53:37
The best place is actually my website. So Wunderstarz.com Because you find links to my YouTube channel, to me on LinkedIn, you find them all there. So wonder starz.com You can also get the agency growth ebook there. So come and visit me on my site. I would love to say hello to people.
Kim Doyal 53:54
Because this has been so fun. I feel like I’ve known you forever already. I’m like her. I built the app. This is what I love about what we do.
Nicole Osborne 54:01
Oh no, I had heard of all so excited still. Thank you.
Kim Doyal 54:06
You’re welcome. All right, guys. Sit tight, and I’ll reiterate some links until then we will catch you next time. This episode is brought to you by my ft hustle newsletter, the newsletter for vision-led entrepreneurs ready to enjoy the journey. Do good work and grow a profitable business. It is time to ditch the hustle. Just go to Kim doyal.com forward-slash f the hustle to sign up today.